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Author Topic: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics  (Read 38328 times)

Offline retroworm

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2009, 03:05:56 PM »
I have found the miss in my previous assertion about Newton3rd, and it closely relates to this device as well. It might even be a hindering flaw in the design (though not likely a crippling one), but I'll have to look more into specifics before stating anything more.

Previously I thought the electrons recoil the magnet so I overlooked why they curl in the first place. They don't just emit photons when they curl, they curl BECAUSE they emit photons. That was bit of a revelation to me. It's called cyclotron radiation and is well understood phenomenon. It's a simple recoil effect when photon is cast from electron, giving it a slight nudge.

So my presumption of a linear system was in fact right. Provided that you let the photons escape freely, there will be net momentum. It doesn't violate conservation of momentum though. In case of the circular system though, it might slightly hinder the angular moment. I have to get my facts straight before claiming too much, but even in the worst scenario I believe there is still net torque. It's more of a topological problem...I'll have to draw some diagrams.

None of that (nor the eddy current thing) says anything against your premise though. What we are doing here is essentially just attempts to exploit a phenomenon. Disproving one possible method doesn't disprove the effect itself.

stuff to read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclotron_radiation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham-Lorentz_force  (radiation reaction force)

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2009, 03:05:56 PM »

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2009, 07:18:41 AM »
Just thought I would say hello, is there anyone wanting to claim the prize?

Phil

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2009, 02:19:21 AM »
@All

Would making the prize $10,000 get more interest?

Phil

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2009, 02:19:21 AM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2009, 12:44:45 AM »
Hi to Hans

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2009, 01:00:39 AM »
Thanks Phil, I shall study the thread.

Hans

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2009, 01:00:39 AM »
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Offline retroworm

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2009, 08:37:59 PM »
Just a quick note about what I was previously saying.
It seems fairly hard to find aswers to very specific things, but from what I have studied so far, the radiation pressure should almost fully cancel out any toque produced by the machine. Intuitively, if the radiation is strong enough to divert the bulk mass of electrons so that they produce a significant force on impact, that radiation would also cause equal but opposite force as it hits the surface. There is narrow portion where returning (those heading towards center) electrons accelerate the emitting plate with radiation and receiving plate with impact without cancellation, but outwards going electrons would never produce net torque.

Probably more confusing than clarifying, but that's all I have now :P.

But considering that, there might be another much simpler configuration to demonstrate the concept. Pile rectangular planar plates with small gap, one edge much longer than the other, and run a magnetic field through it (perpendicular to the longer side). It is like a solid state version of the motor. It won't produce torque, but it should give out measurable amount of coherent (possibly exploitable) radiation from both ends. I've no idea what wavelength the radiation would be though.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2009, 12:22:46 AM »
Hi Retroworm,

So where do I send the cheque to?

To be honest I do not understand what you are saying.

Taking one electron emission at a time we have an electron with an average angle perpendicular to the surface emitted then as it starts its inter gap journey it is deflected by a magnetic field and then having travelled say 5um it crashes into (or is captured) the other surface but at a low angle (like a meteorite across the sky) and when impacting does 2 things, first it transfer some momentum, and secondly it imparts so energy by causing a vibration in the lattice (ie the metal gats a bit hotter).

So we know that the emitted electron cooled the electrode it left and heated the electrode it crashed into and that the difference in energies must be a translation into rotation for concentric electodes that are free to turn.

do you agree with that?

P

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2009, 12:22:46 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline retroworm

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2009, 02:13:20 PM »
Hehe, I'm not after your money. Everything I say is assuming the core idea is correct.

I didn't think it was clear explanation either, guess it needs a picture. I agree what you're saying but it's only part of what's happening. Black arrows in the illustration represent photons that are cast from the electrons as they curl. Photons don't have mass, but they do impart momentum when they are emitted (also the reason why the electrons curl at all) and when they hit a surface. The latter frame indicates that the torque of outgoing electrons is fully cancelled and won't have net effect. I haven't taken into account any possible reflections/refractions so this might not be fully accurate.

But this further makes me think that whatever net torque it does produce is going to be fairly weak. I'm beginning to think that solid state devices might be easier way to do it, at least for a demonstration. The second pic is just half assed illustration of what I mentioned in previous post. It's and electrode sandwich in a magnetic field that lets the radiation resulting from curling freely escape.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2009, 03:25:09 PM »
Hi Retroworm,

I must congratulate you on a highly creative idea.

However the effect of such is not quite as your diagram shows and the photon energy transferring into momentum is so incredibly small that it cannot be an issue. From my understanding a photon if fully absorbed transfers momentum at a pressure of the energy divided by c.

So the energy of a photon of say .01ev becomes a force of 3.33E-11 x Ec

As the radiation is also in many directions then the potential number of photons in a given and relevant direction is not 100%.

Also from your diagram it is apparent that the net force is almost zero just be cancellation.

however as said, you are by far the best candidate just because you found something to argue.


Phil
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 04:13:46 PM by Philip Hardcastle »

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2009, 03:25:09 PM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2009, 03:27:57 PM »
Sorry, bad units used but the idea is the same.

Need to properly convert the energy transfer to effective force.

will post a corrected calculation.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 04:18:03 PM by Philip Hardcastle »

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2009, 03:39:11 PM »
I come up with a force of 5.37E-32N per photon collision.

So assuming net force is 10% then that amounts to a net force of 5.4E-33N

So it is incredibly small.

For an amps worth of emission we would get 4E-14N whereas the momentum tranfer for the electrons will be of the order of 1E-5N or a billion times as much.

however I reserve at almost midnight the right to be a decimal place out.

So unless someone says otherwise the cheque is not signed

Phil
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 04:15:02 PM by Philip Hardcastle »

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2009, 03:39:11 PM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2009, 03:48:21 PM »
pls also note that an emitted photon of 0.01ev is too big however the formula is so complicated at this time of night that I just gave a big number as a gimme. I think from a quick calc that the photons emitted would be about 0.00001ev for a velocity of 100,000m/s at a 5um radius in a mag field of 0.01T. Perhaps you might have the number already retroworm.

 again I reserve the right to be mistaken by a factor of 10 at midnight.

Phil

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2009, 03:59:46 PM »
Hi again,

found something on wiki that supports my rough calcs.

A square mile sail receiving energetic sunlight only has a force of 2 Newtons. Dividing down a square mile to a cm2 is 1/2.56E10 or 3.9E-11

So that says that an amps worth of .00001ev photons is about 1/5000th of sunlight photons so we divide 3.9E-11 by 5000

is..............7.8E-15N

give or take a decimal place

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2009, 04:08:57 PM »
The 5,000 should be about 13,600 so the force of photons is more like 2.86E-15


Offline Elisha

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Re: Curled Ballisitic Thermionics
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2009, 12:23:23 AM »
If this idea is true.

Then this is the project with more impact in the live in all the world.

 

OneLink