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Author Topic: Expansion rate of hho ?  (Read 23481 times)

Chris31

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 06:08:41 AM »
Quote from: exxcomm0n on January 23, 2009, 04:48:54 AM
As TK and others have said the implosion happens, I've experienced the collapsed bubbler syndrome myself.

When HHO explodes it creates energy and water.

Even if that water is expanded many times in the form of steam due to the heat of its surroundings, it still occupies less area than the disassociated gases due to molecular recombination back into a form of water.

I've often wondered at what type of mechanical means could harness both effects as the explosion/implosion conversion happens very quickly and the internal combustion engine (piston form) just can't turn fast enough to capitalize on that.

I'm not sure even a heavily modified Wankel could.


Hi thanks for the reply,

If water is injected then atleast it would help remove (even better if it would cause more expansion) the effect of implosion making the engine more efficient. It would be nice to see an engine using the explosion/implosion but I think it would be extremely difficult to achieve.  :-\
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ramset

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2009, 05:11:31 PM »
Gentlemen

What process explains the Hydrogen torch? [Browns gas,numerous U Tube demos Etc]

DR Stifflers continuous burning flame at no pressure

  Chet
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TheNOP

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2009, 05:35:27 PM »
Quote from: ramset on January 25, 2009, 05:11:31 PM
Gentlemen

What process explains the Hydrogen torch? [Browns gas,numerous U Tube demos Etc]

DR Stifflers continuous burning flame at no pressure

  Chet
if i remember right, mr Stifflers was separating oxygen from the hydrogen before burning the gas.

hydrogen torch use flame arrestor.
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ramset

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2009, 05:54:55 PM »
NOP

Yes Stiffler separated the Hydrogen{I forgot that part][lighting it right on top of the water in a wick]

Does browns torch also separate the oxygen?

Chet
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exxcomm0n

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2009, 07:12:52 PM »
Hi Chet,

I'd think there are 2 reasons for the HHO torch not to "blow itself out" w/ the implosion effect.

1.) The torch is not a sealed chamber.

As Ironhead pointed out from his experimentation, there has to be a pretty specific ratio of 66.6% (H2) and 33.3% (O) for "perfect" recombination. A bubbler ignition is a good example of this. An explosion in an airtight bubbler should completely implode and destroy the bubbler.

A bubbler does not completely implode and rupture (if it is made of a flexible material like a plastic soda bottle) from ignition because it has 2 outlets, the gas inlet from the generation chamber, and the gas outlet (to torch, tank, etc.).
The ignition source is always (hopefully) coming from the outlet side so if the flame front from ignition is traveling towards the bubbler there is a small vacuum in its previous path so it is "sucking" atmosphere behind it as it explodes to fill the vacuum created by recombination.
The explosive force when the flame front reaches the bubbler blows water back up the supply tube from the bubbler towards the generation chamber, momentarily compressing the gas output from the generator (again, hopefully. If not, it can be at the very least a big mess), and then sucks it back with the resulting vacuum.

The explosion happening in the bubbler can push water back towards the generation chamber and suck it back during implosion, but has more explosive force pushing back towards the outlet because of not having the resistive force of pushing water and positive pressure from the gas generation chamber (pushing atmosphere, or expanding towards the vacuum in the line it created getting to the bubbler).

2.) The torch flame is getting a continuous "feed" of HHO

A good torch will be supplying HHO to the flame at a rate faster than the burning HHO can travel back towards the gas supply through the (small) hole it goes through towards the atmosphere. The bigger this hole is, the more gas supply is necessary to keep it from traveling back towards the supply chamber.
If you cannot supply gas fast enough for the hole size, flashback occurs and the implosion can be seen because of the airtight nature of the HHO gas generation,  the collection path and the small aperture of the hole used for your torch as the path of least resistance to the atmosphere.

Otherwise, you just hear a "POP" when the torch flame snuffs itself.

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ramset

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2009, 07:39:56 PM »

Thanks EXX
Speaking of burning water and a lot more

http://www.browngas.com/eng_bestkorea/history_1.htm

 An HHO heater the inventor infers he has running overunity

HHO burning in a torch quite cool 400, 600F

Put that same flame on a piece of MANGANESE OR TITANIUM  3200F

This guy did the obvious , plus got the cell pumping  MUCHO gas

Checkout his patents

Im trying to get my brain around this Korean fellows Heating device

For sale in Korea [South]


This patent will be of interest

US 6,761,558 Heating apparatus using thermal reaction of brown gas

US 6,397,834 Brown gas heating furnace made of mineral stone
 Chet

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TheNOP

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2009, 08:28:42 PM »
there are only 2 ways to stop a cumbustion.

-prevent comburant(oxygen) to reach the flame.

-decrease the temperature below the ignition point of what is burning
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exxcomm0n

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2009, 09:24:19 PM »
Hey Chet,

I've often wondered what causes the wide disparity between the flame reaction temperature depending on what the substance is.

I've come to the conclusion (through occidental proof, no personal in depth experimentation) that it is the moisture content of the material that governs the reaction temp.

Since metals and glass can have very little humidity content vs. skin or a piece fruit and they react with much more temp creation and react (burn) hotter.

Why the humidity might have this effect may be the same as why Indian fakirs can walk over hot coals without getting burnt.
By vaporizing water a thin layer barrier is created that retards the chemical or pyrotechnic reaction that can cause much higher temps.

Then there's the fact that combustion is in fact creating water on it's outer edge that is already vaporized and sort of creating the barrier.

This is not proven and does not come from any other source than my head, so I'm sure it's incorrect.

As to how the water heater functions, I'm looking into the patents you posted, but I don't have a clear picture of it yet due to bad translation to english.

;)

P.S. If it were warmer out I'd crank up the torch and try the theory on a full soda can or an apple.
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ramset

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2009, 09:31:56 PM »
EXX
Something to do with TRANSMUTATION of elements

lots of info here http://www.brownsgas.com/nuclearwaste.html   

Chet

PS original patent info from user Stefan his first post here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3597-hho-heater.html
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ramset

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2009, 03:06:33 AM »
EXX

Ever since I learned that Yule Brown treated  contaminated radiation with his HHO

,and the odd anomaly of a cold HHO flame in atmosphere making  3200F.up against Titanium

It seems to me we should at the very least be using the gas the way the Koreans are

Take that 300 F flame and turn it into a 3200F furnace [10 times more out then in ,at what cost?]

Get your self a pound of water, a Titanium bolt[melting point 3000F]
 
Hang the bolt in the water [you might even be able to run the torch under the water up against the submerged bolt]

Measure the time it takes to raise the pound of water one degree[in one minute] [definition of a BTU ]

And we can calculate the efficiency
 
  Chet
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 03:47:49 AM by ramset »
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ramset

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2009, 04:33:35 PM »
All

the way i understand it the heater that is forsale in Korea doesn't use water [after the flame]

IT has a primary reaction chamber [where 1 unit in gives ten units out, no charge]

and a secondary plenumb above

THE UNIT IS NOT VENTED        ALL HEAT DOES WORK [warms your ass]

NO emisions  [clean air is the byproduct]

         300F in 3200F [at no extra cost]out
                 
                                Chet
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