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Author Topic: Expansion rate of hho ?  (Read 23444 times)

captainl67

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Expansion rate of hho ?
« on: January 21, 2009, 11:51:34 PM »
Hi all
 I am new to all this so please forgive my ignorance. I do not have a PHD just a GED lol.
 My question is ; what is the expansion rate or size of HHO?
  If you Ignite a ml or liter of HHO gas does it increase in volume or size .Not sure if I am getting it rite but if I ignite a liter of HHO will it increase in volume expand or what just trying to figure out what happens when you ignite it . I have ignited some balloons have blown my cell up by accident once so I know it has to expand but how much. Please be gentle again I am a layman not a scientist at all .
 Thanks any input is greatly appriciated.
 Captainl67       
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CrazyEwok

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 02:41:38 AM »
Pure HHO implodes so the expansion rate is negative...
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IronHead

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 04:39:20 AM »
HHO  implodes and explodes even in what is called pure HHO or  HHO from the electrolysis process in the ratio of 66.6% and 33.3%  I have been studying this for some time with a gas detonation device I have been working on using a detonation chamber ,high speed camera and an Oscope with appropriate sensors. Both  implosion and explosion reaction is near 40,000 feet per second. There is also a very strange field effect that goes on during this reaction. Greater study is required to understand what this field is.   
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CrazyEwok

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 04:46:29 AM »
IH!!!
Just a thought to your explanation, not to disput you!!! you know i think your an invaluable when it comes to HHO information!!! you said HHO in the perfect mix explodes and implodes. is it possible that there could be multiple reactions happening... H2O and H2O2?!? one being implosion and the other explosion? I am only working on some possibility of mixing only hydrogen and oxygen... Would seem possible no?
BTW i am looking at your opinion not hard evidence :)
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IronHead

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 04:57:12 AM »
The only mix ever found to get equal reactions is  66.6 and 33.3  But there are four  components here in the effect  implosion, explosion , shockwave and this strange electrical field for lack of a better term.


Experiment,  find more data with what ever you can imagine that will give us more info. There are very few real experiments going on today to tell us what is really going on in this reaction of different mix types. 
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captainl67

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 05:52:32 AM »
Ok
 help me understand . I blew the top off of my electrolyzer to me that would be explosion ! so how far does a liter expand in such a case. and what is pure HHO ?
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captainl67

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 05:56:27 AM »
 and has anyone seen this implosion ? I have run it in a 25cc engine without any extra air or intake of air so I am thinking explosion. ??????????
 Like I said thow I am not as informed as you guys so please use some laymen terms.
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IronHead

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 06:18:52 AM »
Many have . But because of the shock wave moving outward  you can run a piston engine .. There is still a vacuum effect  but the explosion and shockwave given time to propagate over come this,  driving the piston. This effect will increase with added air. More air will slow the burn time, mainly because of the nitrogen as it is inert. There are many different experiments and devices you can build to see the difference in a vacuum outcome or a expansion outcome  or both. Sealed chambers and inert gas injected chambers such as the piston engine.  There are far to many of these test to list, so here are just a few of the videos we have done. Sorry I am trying to cram far to much in to such a short reply. I hope to explain more as this thread builds.

SSC showing pure HHO running a small gasoline engine in a very informative long series
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C547458B2E914426

Allgood's experiment on shockwave and expansion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkQZIm1wN0&feature=channel_page

CarbideTip's implosion effects experiments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AoOdjt-xyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XCDJinhA_8&feature=channel_page

And here Carbide is showing  both effects
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IucbKX0E7NE&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozlnA-w4JOI&feature=channel_page





« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 07:17:23 AM by IronHead »
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IronHead

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 07:34:41 PM »
Pure HHO is derived from the water cracking process.  2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. This is where the ratio of 66.6% Hydrogen and 33.3% Oxygen comes from . If there is nothing else added to this mix such as air or other we see a stronger implosive effect. This has to do with burn time and propagation. At this mix the burn rate it about 40,000 feet per second .Adding other gases including air will slow this burn rate down. 


 "How far does a liter of HHO expand" . this depends on the burn rate and the added air amount or the air that is already in your device. If there is no air or steam or any other gases in the container  the gas will imploded causing the container to destruct inward but as the air comes in through the broken pieces  you then have the explosion effect and this is what you end up seeing as this all happens so fast.

I know some of this sounds contradicting , but there are many factors in this simple gas reaction  and the outcome of  its force. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 08:47:20 PM by IronHead »
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TinselKoala

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 08:16:17 PM »
Well, I've had implosion-explosion events in my HHO experiments. I've seen plastic bubblers collapse from outside air pressure, after an implosion. I've seen cylinder head parts cracked, after explosion. So I think the correct ratio of gases can produce an explosion/shockwave, and then the product of the reaction (water vapor) condenses and produces the implosion effect. In fact, this explosion/implosion is an old-timer's way of getting a partial vacuum in a glass vacuum tube. You fill the tube with water, electrolyse it till the water is displaced by gas, use the pump to evacuate this gas, flame-seal the tube (carefully!) then send a little arc thru the electrodes in the tube to explode/implode the remaining gas. You wind up with a much stronger vacuum than your pump will pull, and a little residual water vapor in the tube.
It would seem to me that a properly-designed IC engine for HHO would take advantage of the explosion, to push the piston down in the normal way, and also the implosion, to pull it partially back up during what would usually be an "exhaust" stroke.
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IronHead

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 08:51:22 PM »
Problem is the reaction happens so quickly it would not go through its stroke at least with the perfect mix for expansion and contraction that has propagation due to burn time. So some kind of valve system to send the vacuum to the other side would be needed. Or to another piston that is in the vacuum stroke trimming  If that makes sense.

But that is for another thread I think
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 09:17:02 PM by IronHead »
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Kator01

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 10:15:35 PM »
Hi Iron_Head,

I found this vid here which is a very remarkable demo of implosion and accelleration-value of a piston :

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=CkrCCo4Q0cI

This is the guy :

http://www.excusertech.com/Company.htm

Regards

Kator01

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Chris31

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 11:29:34 PM »
I dont think implosion could take place in a very hot combustion chamber.  ???

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exxcomm0n

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 04:48:54 AM »
As TK and others have said the implosion happens, I've experienced the collapsed bubbler syndrome myself.

When HHO explodes it creates energy and water.

Even if that water is expanded many times in the form of steam due to the heat of its surroundings, it still occupies less area than the disassociated gases due to molecular recombination back into a form of water.

I've often wondered at what type of mechanical means could harness both effects as the explosion/implosion conversion happens very quickly and the internal combustion engine (piston form) just can't turn fast enough to capitalize on that.

I'm not sure even a heavily modified Wankel could.
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CrazyEwok

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Re: Expansion rate of hho ?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2009, 05:24:35 AM »
Rotary is on the books for my major project once i get my cell running noice... 1984 Celica XX with a 13B or 20A (if i can get my hands on one) converted into it... should run nicly and have plenty of hood space to place any sort of Cell i want in there
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