Author Topic: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler (Read 1486760 times)

Magnethos · « **Reply #2610 on:** December 20, 2008, 10:38:36 PM »

Thank you very much, clear explanation.
Happy Christmas Dr.

MarkSnoswell · « **Reply #2611 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:28:48 AM »

Quote from: DrStiffler on December 20, 2008, 09:25:43 PM

A new video of the new software that controls the measurement protocols.

The video shows an ESEC(1) going OU well past the margin of error. Test stopped at 180%.

ESEC(1)'s go to 200% without problem.

Dr.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd4h6oVtGj4

ESEC Naming:

ESEC(1) OU>1<3
ESEC(2) => ESEC(3) OU>2<4
ESEC(6) OU =>6
ESEC(10) OU > 10

I have some recent experience with these large "supercapacitors". You can not assume that the capacitance is constant under dynamic conditions. The capacitors must be characterized to determine their real performance under the conditions you are using. When you do this you see that a simple model approximation is that of two capacitors -- one with a fast response and one with a very long response time. In the time frame of the measurements shown the real capacitance will be considerably lower than the claimed 3 F.

I have observed leakage current of 1ma @16V in very similar capacitors. If you take this into account and let the capacitor stand for 15 min or so after it has been disconnected from the experiment you can get a far more accurate estimate of the power accumulated.

hartiberlin · « **Reply #2612 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:25:31 PM »

What about building 2 ESECs and let them charge each other,
so no power supply is needed ?

This should be easily to demonstrate with a few Relays which toggle
back and forth.

This way a selfrunning system should be doable without the need of a power
supply or any other input power system.

Regards, Stefan.

Kator01 · « **Reply #2613 on:** January 12, 2009, 07:44:11 PM »

Hello MarkSnoswell,

very good point. It is definitely my experience when I was using 33 000 My Farad with fast puls-charge-proccess. It is much more difficult with supercaps since part of the energy-inflow is consumed up in dielectric-polarisation of the vast surface of the supercap. This feature was explained in one of the papers way back in 2000 when I bought the first supercap for some experiments.
This very property is also responsible for a seemingly faster charge-up-behaviour shortly after a discharge because this dielectric-conditioning-energy is released time-delayed.

@all :

can someone help me with a supplier of this MPSA06-Transistor.I bought 100 of them here in munich from a professional supplier. There is not one piece which has a hfe > 130. They are very well produced and hfe varies in the range of 120 to 130 only. Too good to be true.

Second question is this : I have two digi-meters and each measures a different hfe-value. e.g. one shows hfe 100 the other hfe 120 for the same transistor.

Is there a standard-method of this hfe-measurement ? I do not trust these meters after this experience.

best Regards

Kator01

.

hartiberlin · « **Reply #2614 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:02:15 PM »

Quote from: MarkSnoswell on January 12, 2009, 01:28:48 AM

I have some recent experience with these large "supercapacitors". You can not assume that the capacitance is constant under dynamic conditions. The capacitors must be characterized to determine their real performance under the conditions you are using. When you do this you see that a simple model approximation is that of two capacitors -- one with a fast response and one with a very long response time. In the time frame of the measurements shown the real capacitance will be considerably lower than the claimed 3 F.

I have observed leakage current of 1ma @16V in very similar capacitors. If you take this into account and let the capacitor stand for 15 min or so after it has been disconnected from the experiment you can get a far more accurate estimate of the power accumulated.

Hi Mark,
so you think this 3 Farad cap could have something like a "surface charge",
which is not a real charge, so the accumulated energy is not the real Joule value ?

Do you have a link to a paper describing this effect ?

Would it be better to use then only a stack of parallel foil capacitors or what capacitors would be best ?

I guess the final solution would be to see, if 2 ESECs could be switched back and
forth and keep on running and charging up each other and drop in voltage.
If this will result in a selfrunning system, the final proof will be done.

Regards, Stefan.

MarkSnoswell · « **Reply #2615 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:12:41 PM »

@Kator1

MPSA06 is available from West Florida Components on eBay http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/westfloridacomponents_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ

Do you have a link for that paper on the supercaps?

@hartiberlin and all

You can use the supercaps but you just have to take account of their particular characteristics when doing efficiency calculations.

DrStiffler · « **Reply #2616 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:28:01 PM »

@All

I do not dispute the accurate description of what can happen with supercaps, but I will say that the charge when properly applied by an ESEC will remain on the test caps for over 24hrs with only a minimal 0.5 to 1 volt drop, which still reflects a CEC far in excess of 1. If I had a cap with 1ma leakage I would be looking for my money back!.

To stop this before it goes to far, the charge on the caps are dumped (cycle discharged) into an electronic load (monitored via computer) and what is presented is accurate.

@Stephan

Be careful of what you wish.........

hartiberlin · « **Reply #2617 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:38:01 PM »

Quote from: DrStiffler on January 12, 2009, 09:28:01 PM

@All

I do not dispute the accurate description of what can happen with supercaps, but I will say that the charge when properly applied by an ESEC will remain on the test caps for over 24hrs with only a minimal 0.5 to 1 volt drop, which still reflects a CEC far in excess of 1. If I had a cap with 1ma leakage I would be looking for my money back!.

To stop this before it goes to far, the charge on the caps are dumped (cycle discharged) into an electronic load (monitored via computer) and what is presented is accurate.

Well sounds good, so your charge is real and not just some kind of surface charge...
With all your great test equipment you would have probably anyway detected this already, if the
discharge pulse into the nicad wire or load resistors wouldhave been smaller..

Quote

@Stephan

Be careful of what you wish.........

I hope you can accomplish this soon !

MarkSnoswell · « **Reply #2618 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:39:02 PM »

@Kator01

Not to worry -- I have found the references to the capacitors -- just needed to search with the right terms -- Electrochemical Supercapacitor. I note from this paper that the capacitance could easily be less than 10% of the rated DC value in the MHz range. http://www.imeko.org/publications/tc4-2007/IMEKO-TC4-2007-009.pdf

This paper concludes:

"The phenomenon of capacitance dependence on measurement current values is explained by a
complicated physical and chemical nature of the electrochemical supercapacitor charge storage. The
non-linear equivalent capacitance of the electrochemical supercapacitor porous electrode includes nonlinear
distributed double-layer capacitance and non-linear distributed Faradaic capacitance. These two
capacitances have different time constants. Therefore, if the electrochemical supercapacitor is charged
with high current the non-linear distributed double-layer capacitance is charged to a rated voltage faster
than non-linear distributed Faradaic capacitance."

These capacitors are fascinating -- as noted here http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec252000/1656.pdf - they are characterised by two components; the electrical double layer capacitance and the pseudocapacitance. .. indeed, the equivalent spice model given in the first paper is quite alarming in it's complexity.

While I can find plenty of academic papers I cant find a summary reference on the behaviour and recommended use of the current generation of "car" supercapacitors -- does anyone know if and where this data is available?

thanks
mark.

sparks · « **Reply #2619 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:39:26 PM »

Capacitors are funny animals. They must physically squeeze the heck out of the dielectric. Especially if you're up around a coulomb on each plate. No wonder they need to dissipate heat when used in an ac permanent split capacitor motor .

derricka · « **Reply #2620 on:** January 13, 2009, 01:18:04 AM »

Quote from: Kator01 on January 12, 2009, 07:44:11 PM

@all :

Second question is this : I have two digi-meters and each measures a different hfe-value. e.g. one shows hfe 100 the other hfe 120 for the same transistor.

Is there a standard-method of this hfe-measurement ? I do not trust these meters after this experience.

best Regards

Kator01

Hi Kator,
I suspect most typical low cost DVM's arn't properly calibrated when it comes to transistor measurement. Cheaper meters often only report Beta. (DC current gain)
Also, hfe comes in different types. (hfe is one of a suite of h parameters and refers only to the common emitter configuration. You can call it the AC current gain.)
Lower case is used to denote small signal operation. (hfe)
Upper case is used to denote large signal conditions. (hFE)
Small signal means signal is not large enough to take the transistor where the characteristics are significantly changed.
Large signal obviously does and is what you need for switching as the transistor will go from full off to full on. (Saturation)
hFE is always less than hfe.
Beta is a static (DC) parameter the DC current gain,which gives a rough idea of the ac gain.
Finally, hfe and hFE gains diminish at higher frequencies due to Miller capacitance.

Hope this helps.

Derrick

Kator01 · « **Reply #2621 on:** January 14, 2009, 09:44:23 PM »

Hii Derricka,

thank you for your explanation. It is now clear that these dc-hfe-values are of no meaning, so I have to set up a circuit by which I will measure amiplitue, puls-response-time and dv/dt using a contant voltage-supply in two variations at a given frequency ( 5 to 10 MHz in this case as this is the range of operation in the ESEC) :

1) contant-current-control
2) no contant-current-control

By comparing these two wave-forms I will get better data. But again I would expect drstiffler do give us a hint.

Regards

Kator01

DrStiffler · « **Reply #2622 on:** January 18, 2009, 10:06:49 PM »

@all

WHAT? has has taken place here, the overunity.com is now full of politics and .........

Where are the real people going to?

I will not post here.............

AbbaRue · « **Reply #2623 on:** January 18, 2009, 10:18:58 PM »

@DrStiffler
There is a lot going on at the Joule Thief thread and it has a lot to do with your circuit too.
Check it out, so far it has been going very well. (no negative vibes)
Maybe some of your experience could be helpful there too.
These units can be built from a disposable camera circuit.
So anyone can build one in minutes.
I strongly believe it can be modified to duplicate your cold electricity results.

Pirate88179 · « **Reply #2624 on:** January 18, 2009, 10:38:50 PM »

Dr. Stiffler:

Yes, I agree. There is a good group of folks over there and everyone sticks to the experiments and no politics. I have learned a lot since starting this topic and even with what little I know about how your devices work, I can see a relationship in that I can light 100 LEDs from an old AA battery with only 1 wire attached. (and 400 using both wires) Please join us there as we would value your input. Thanks.

Bill

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Author Topic: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler (Read 1486760 times)

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