Author Topic: Strange effect! (Read 16315 times)

Davetech · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2007, 09:09:10 PM »

Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut since I had never even heard of the floatation effect. It certainly is counter-intuitive.

But it occured to me that maybe flotation could be ruled out if you run the weight measurement test without any electrolyte? If you still get a weight increase, it won't be due to floatation (unless it is floating on air... lol)

HTwoGo · « **Reply #16 on:** September 11, 2007, 12:54:42 AM »

Hi,
I have strapped one of my temperature sensors to an existing load cable with the following results, at 50 watts I am seeing a temperature gain of 2+ deg C over 10 minuets, (on the outside of the cable), this is far more than I was expecting, so I guess my existing leads are lighter than I expected, I have swapped the cables with 4.0 mm2 and the mechanics are better this now shows less than 1 deg C rise for the same load. But still I am seeing a 0.2g increase in weight! If the effect is purely electro thermal mechanical I would expect both positive and negative influences, but to date I have only ever seen this small positive increase then the expected decrease, perhaps there is purging of the air volume above the electrolyte with the H2 and O2 mix that may extend into the volume of air above the cell that may initially contribute a buoyancy effect on the cell that is masked as the mission progresses, the H2 may initially also be preferentially breaking the surface of the electrolyte due to its density, this effect is then lost as the system stabilizes? Comments?

Best, HTwoGo

HTwoGo · « **Reply #17 on:** September 11, 2007, 08:49:57 AM »

Quote from: Davetech on September 10, 2007, 09:09:10 PM

Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut since I had never even heard of the floatation effect. It certainly is counter-intuitive.

But it occured to me that maybe flotation could be ruled out if you run the weight measurement test without any electrolyte? If you still get a weight increase, it won't be due to floatation (unless it is floating on air... lol)

...next you will be telling me that water can burn using only electrisity!!

and that would be floating in air.

tinu · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2007, 10:42:37 AM »

Quote from: HTwoGo on September 11, 2007, 12:54:42 AM

Hi,
I have strapped one of my temperature sensors to an existing load cable with the following results, at 50 watts I am seeing a temperature gain of 2+ deg C over 10 minuets, (on the outside of the cable), this is far more than I was expecting, so I guess my existing leads are lighter than I expected, I have swapped the cables with 4.0 mm2 and the mechanics are better this now shows less than 1 deg C rise for the same load. But still I am seeing a 0.2g increase in weight! If the effect is purely electro thermal mechanical I would expect both positive and negative influences, but to date I have only ever seen this small positive increase then the expected decrease, perhaps there is purging of the air volume above the electrolyte with the H2 and O2 mix that may extend into the volume of air above the cell that may initially contribute a buoyancy effect on the cell that is masked as the mission progresses, the H2 may initially also be preferentially breaking the surface of the electrolyte due to its density, this effect is then lost as the system stabilizes? Comments?

Best, HTwoGo

0.2g increase in weight is already much smaller than 1.1g!
So, it?s mainly thermal. You were right from the very beginning.

The pictures are excellent!
What I would do would be letting the power cables between the cell and the clamps a little longer. As they are now in the photos they are curved up (going from the cell to the clamp) and they seem to push down on the cell. (Of course, the cell is not shown on the balance and I can not be sure.) Is it possible that the increase of temperature is increasing the force of the wires pushing down on the cell? It may well be the case. But you are right; you have to see both influences: positive and negative and I would still pursue in that direction. So, I would play again with the wires, curving/bending them down (the opposite way of that leading to a weight increase) and then maybe letting them be longer also.

Also, the time interval between placing the cell on the balance and between the start of experiment may also count a lot. (I mean by that the time passed since the last mechanical action on the wires themselves)
Here it is: the cables are flexible. Bend them in your hand and then let them relax. Relaxation time may be very, very long; maybe many hours. (That?s due to the insulation). By changing the temperature, the relaxation speed varies; hence the force varies also?

Anyway, 1.1g/35W -> 0.2g/50W is already a huge progress! Just dig on it.
And please keep us informed.

Tx,
Tinu

HTwoGo · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2007, 10:56:35 PM »

?going back to the old cables for convenience, I have run a number of missions to satisfy myself that there is no odd electronic interference, but the picture is little better.
I have set a 12V 50W lamp on the cell top and taken the cell out of the circuit, the balance is zeroed and a 10000 watt mission run taking 200 sec, then the system is stood for 200 sec to stabilize, the balance is zeroed and the protocol repeated.
The first mission was from cold so may be misleading, but 4 missions were run with one polarity and 2 with the polarity reversed, I can see little difference between them. There are air currents set up by the lamp and this I believe accounts for the changes in the readings, I must say that I didn?t expect this part of the project to be so problematic! I did initially think that cell weight loss would be a better way of measuring gas production but perhaps not.
Any comments.

Any one know anything about electrostatics? Could I have a charge building and leaking away?

I think I am going to set this aside for the moment and focus on the target hardware, this I think will not have many of these problems built in. I will update to this thread as long as think it is interesting readers.

Best, HTwoGo

lltfdaniel1 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2007, 11:04:36 PM »

double post (internet laged)

lltfdaniel1 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2007, 11:07:43 PM »

As far as what i know about the word static, is that , these overunity machines that work without fuel , with the word static that run on static,which do exist,

however when i come across the word static i think about free electrons >''energy from the vaccum'' from all these books i have read.

energy from the vacuum/aether is neutrinos in science, they work with a interfering process , and i have read some topics about the interfering process and neutrinos suit that purpose very well with these machines on this forum.

Neutrinos are a part of the process of photosynsesis in plants as well as many other things,and telsa who discovered radiant energy ( neutrinos) said that it has a part in the life system,and as far as i know neutrinos also power the earths core as part of a catalyser.

so by the looks of it you have interference.

HTwoGo · « **Reply #22 on:** September 11, 2007, 11:36:37 PM »

While coding a volt control ramp and step function, I came across a small current (red plot) breakdown at some 2.35V that I am able to repeat, any one else seen any thing like this? Any idea what it shows. The cell is not producing any gas at this point. The affect is small but there.

Best, HTwoGo

HTwoGo · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:02:20 PM »

Apologies for dropping off the radar for a while there but I decided that I had begun to run before I had learned to walk. My test rig is now running on an autonomous rack with supporting hardware correctly configured and not stacked all over the place, and piggybacking of my PC.
As far as the original strange effect of gaining weight initially I am still at a loss to explain this unequivocally, I have had the balance with the cell on it for days now without connections there is no anomaly but as soon as I run any current through the system, I always gain a tenth to a few tenths of a gram this is then masked by the cells off gassing. The balance makers do site electrostatics as a potential problem with finer balances, and that a conductive container will help, so this is for tomorrows run. The electrostatic effect is also impacted by the relative humidity which could explain the variability.
The cables seem to also add some creak to the balance in that the result seems sticky and seem to drop intermittently usually following vibration (mouse click on the bench?) in the same way a rope under tension will creak when flexed, I am going to investigated flexible PCBs next if they will carry the current.
The current setup has 700g of 2.5 meg/cm DI water with 1.08g of bicarb. The cell starts out at around 20 deg C this rises to some 65 deg C over the run of 200kW input, this will lose some 3g off weight most to gas but I still need to control the evaporation. The run starts out at 100W power input this drops off to a little over 50W at the end of the run and at some 65 deg C, after only 400kW through the cell the electrolyte has 10mm of mud in the bottom. The few tenths gain over 3 g loss is more than I am happy with but if I can keep it constant I will be able to live with it for the moment. The 3 g could also be way more, 30 g perhaps, if I can get the temperature rise under control. This would lose the error better.
I am currently putting a small argon gas muffle (box) together to allow me to do half decent job of annealing my plates, hopefully this will help with the mud problem.
If anyone asks I will post a pic of the current setup, if not once I have more to show.

Best, HTwoGo

HTwoGo · « **Reply #24 on:** October 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM »

Strange effect solved?
The unexplained effect of initially apparently gaining weight has been eliminated but swapping the two current leads 4mm2 hi flex copper leads, silicone jacketed, with 2 brass foils without insulation, they are 0.003? (.0762mm) thick with a section of 3.0 mm2 each, the reported weight is now as expected with no creak or unexpected readings they are however susceptible to air currents, the temperature and voltage sensing leads do not have any measurable influence, so they will remain for the moment.
My current configuration will loose some 2.1 to 2.4g during a 200kW input mission, the efficiency increases with temperature, but my cell container is plastic and I have set a limit of 70 deg C (168 F) until I can safely verify that the container will go to 100 deg C.
My next task will plot the rate of weight loss (slope over last 60 sec) against the calculated instantaneous wattage input, this will nullify the drop-off of the watts absorbed by the cell. I am also going to half the electrolyte concentration to 0.5 g / 700g DI water, in an attempt to maintain the power input to the cell.

Best, HTwoGo

tinu · « **Reply #25 on:** October 07, 2007, 05:16:52 PM »

So it was in the insulation, due to thermal.
Congrats,

Tinu

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Author Topic: Strange effect! (Read 16315 times)

Davetech

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