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Author Topic: Strange effect!  (Read 13926 times)

Offline HTwoGo

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Strange effect!
« on: September 06, 2007, 11:51:30 PM »
Strange effect!

Hi all,

in preparation for some research I have built a simple sell on an electronic balance able to resolve 0.01g, the power supply and balance are controlled and report to a Pc and I am able task the system to run a setup and log the results, the preliminary results have me scratching my head.

On energizing the system I see an apparent initial INCREASE in the weight, of about 0.75 grams, with the expected loss of weight as the task is run. The complete cell weighs some 850g. the running parameters are top volts max 5 volts, middle amps 5A max, bottom weight. The conductors are as flexible as I can get and are supported some 100mm from the cell, the balance does not move up and down when weighing and will correctly weigh a 1g mass with the wires connected. If it was electro magnetic I would expect the result to be instant, the cell is covered but not sealed.

Any ideas welcome ????!!!!! 

Htwogo

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Strange effect!
« on: September 06, 2007, 11:51:30 PM »

Offline RunningBare

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 01:01:12 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballooning


Quote
Gas balloons are filled with gases such as:
hydrogen - not widely used for aircraft since the Hindenburg disaster because of high flammability (except for some sport balloons as well as nearly all unmanned scientific and weather balloons).



Offline tinu

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 07:11:38 AM »
Excellent setup, Htwogo!!!

And awesome results!
I?ll be very, very interested in following your experiments.

For the moment I just want to let you know that I?ll be scratching my head besides you?
I?ll be thinking on the subject but right now I?m in a big hurry.

Here is one dirty idea; you?ll probably have to check it if not dismissed already:
- magnetic interaction between the cell&wires and something in the electronic balance (or something existing bellow/around it), due to the magnetic field at 5A.

If you replace the cell with a simple resistor and run the experiment again, you should know if this is the case. If it?s not, it?s needless to say that the discussion and the associated excitement will follow. The effect seems very strange indeed.

Another kind request for you in order to figure out what is happening would be to repeat the experiment and to vary the current/voltage in a linear manner from 0-5-0V and to plot the results. It may not tell much but it may reveal something extra.

I?d be also interested in telling us more about your setup (balance and software), if possible. Is it custom made?
(At that resolution and with automatic acquisition, a lot of extremely exciting hypotheses can be verified, in a lot of areas!)

I very warmly welcome you aboard,
Tinu

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 07:11:38 AM »
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Offline HTwoGo

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 09:02:03 AM »
...the set up is as follows at the moment...
the power supply is a Agilent 6632B able to out put up 20V and 5A the big plus with this is one it is programmable over GPIB (think USB for instruments) and it capable of voltage and current control. The power is also monitored over sense lines so what you see is what you get hence the great resolution 0.0001V and .001A, the unit was calibrated last week so the data is good.
The balance is a Mettler BB2440 it?s as old as the hills but it still calibrates and I have all of the cables and documentation, and I already have written the drivers that I need, it also has a facility for weighting animals so it doesn?t mind the constantly changing weight too much. It is capable of 2400g with a delta range of 400g @ 0.01g sort of a high resolution area that can move up and down the weight scale, this unit is controlled read over RS232 serial.
The software is LabView www.ni.com, I have been using it on and off for 17 years, the page above does not represent much work, it would have taken me longer to figure out what I wanted to do and how.
I have a number of LM35 (temperature) sensors planed for the cell, and the cell is destined for a glass reaction flask, but one thing at a time, now where are my power resistors?

Offline HTwoGo

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 11:34:32 PM »
The strange weight increase seems to be due to some influence from the power leads, perhaps heating of the polymer jacket. I draw this from the recovery after the power is removed and the reported weight is seen to recover. Also I removed the leads, zeroed the balance, ran a 100 second task at 6V @ 5A powered down and removed the leads, here I only saw a steady weight reported with no change with time.

The ramp up did however show little current flow until 2.5V, I will look at this when I get my new cell configured, and running on DI water. This would suggest that the cell is not a dead resistance but has some threshold potential that must be over come before current can flow.

Best HTowGo

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 11:34:32 PM »
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Offline tinu

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2007, 11:58:55 PM »
Many thanks for such prompt posts and relevant experiments!

Still strange!
I?ll post tomorrow some more thoughts on the weight increase; it?s well over midnight here?
(Anyway, my first idea would be that if it?s in the wire, due to their heating, than you must be able to find at least a position in which the weight decreases. Maybe by bending them in the opposite way in which they are now; I don?t now. Hope I made myself clear)

What I can confirm is that the cell is not acting like a resistor in any way.
By placing ANY two metals in water, you already have an electric battery. This is plain electro-chemistry and there is no mystery in it.
Also, observe that the potential is not abruptly falling. It?s the same phenomenon. If you?ll measure the current, you?ll find some non-null values also (although very small ones, depending primarily of the electrodes surface). You may also find a ?rechargeable battery? behavior. It is also explicable.

Keep in touch,

Tinu

Offline kinggeorge

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2007, 06:09:30 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballooning


Quote
Gas balloons are filled with gases such as:
hydrogen - not widely used for aircraft since the Hindenburg disaster because of high flammability (except for some sport balloons as well as nearly all unmanned scientific and weather balloons).




Logic would assum that it vibration due to ION movement, effecting scale. If not the case then perhaps ION flow affects gravity ??? This is really interesting, I would try pure DC also.

George King
georgeking@cosmicsalamander.com

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2007, 06:09:30 AM »
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Offline HTwoGo

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2007, 02:21:21 PM »
"I would try pure DC also."

not sure what you mean here, my PSU is DC.

Best

HTwoGo

Offline Davetech

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2007, 02:44:30 PM »
He probably meant using battery power to eliminate possible influences from the variable power supply you are using; however, it sounds like you are using a well regulated, lab-type supply.

If you suspect conductor heating, I would use heavier guage wire, but that presents a problem with the conductors being "as flexible as possible". Trying to think of a way around that...


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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2007, 02:44:30 PM »
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Offline HTwoGo

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2007, 03:54:34 PM »
Going to a battery would not be a pain at the moment, my PSU is quoted as delivering 0.3uV RMS ripple, link to the spec attached.http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/redirector.jspx?action=ref&nid=-35712.1.00&lc=eng&cc=US&ckey=1000076603%3Aepsg%3Adow&cname=AGILENT_EDITORIAL

The heating effect I think is more to do with the silicone jacket than the copper, I believe that they are good for 10A@250V, I need to rig some sort of adjuster to balance the hanging lead once they are connected, but I have so much else to get through?

Offline tinu

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2007, 10:36:03 PM »
Actually, if you suspend the electrodes of the cell in the water by the power cables themselves (hanging from vertical), so that none of the cell?s parts is in physical contact with the walls of the glass or with its bottom (but electrodes still completely submerged), then those effects due to the cables should be at least significantly minimized. If the cable length from the ?hanging point? to the water level is short enough, I hope that the consequences of wire dilatation will fall under the available weighting resolution.
   
It may very well be due to thermal effects after all, judging by the second graph. Almost linear increase (a good approximation for dilatation) followed by an exponential decrease, due to the cooling (caloric exchange with the environment).
My initial hypothesis (magnetic interaction) is clearly not of prime importance. That?s obvious. If it was, that exponential fall after cutting power off wouldn?t be there. Thermal effects fit the picture much better. (And I apologize for questioning it, as you clearly dismissed magnetism at the end of the first post; at a first glance, without zooming in, the fall seemed pretty instantaneous to me, as seen on the first graph)

Hope it helps.
If not, please post more, eventually about the cell itself as well as others details of the setup, as you may consider relevant.

Tx,
Tinu

P.S. Using a full ?on the balance setup? is actually not a bad idea at all. Not because the source may not be good enough but because it would eliminate from start the main thermal dilatation effects. A small rechargeable 9V may provide for a short time enough voltage (although at low current) at a relatively small added weight. It would not be much of an issue that voltage and current will remain un-recorded. (Both can be measured in advance and their exact value is not of concern here). But the small pain in the ? (technically speaking) would be, imho, to switch the cell on-off remotely, without really disturbing the balance.
Assume that, indeed, a weight increase will be felt in the above case. Now, that would be meaning one hard& long head scratching! Almost can?t wait the final outcome.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2007, 10:36:03 PM »
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Offline HTwoGo

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2007, 12:10:25 AM »
My original plan was to run the sealed cell (with a small water air lock) to evolve a set mass of water/gas and then look at the power absorbed, to get a look at the efficiency. Sealed to mitigate evaporation, (I can easily see evaporation of water on the balance on an uncovered vessel) air lock to trap the mist of, probably hydrogen filled water bubbles, again to mitigate unknown losses. To have the electrodes dipping into the electrolyte adds the following problem as I see it, the electrode will have perceived flotation in the electrolyte proportional to the volume of displaced electrolyte, this will vary as the gas is evolved and the density of the liquid changes, the electrodes will see some buoyancy from bubble adhesion, and the changing volume will add further unknowns, to add a gaiter or other diaphragm to contain the unknown electrolyte losses with dipping electrodes, the gaiter must see no pressure differential or the errors will be massive.

The fully autonomous cell is beyond my budgets at the moment but I can?t see how I would get the power resolution I need for in my tiny cell, to date most of the rig has been existing kit.
I will post some existing and propose pictures tomorrow.

When you talk of thermal dilatation effects I assume this is the whole conductor over current thing with gross degradation of the wire?

Best, HTwoGo

Offline tinu

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2007, 01:23:51 AM »
Well, floatation is the second candidate to the strange effect after thermal. I?ll explain myself, mainly for all readers; I assume you are familiar with it, HTwoGo.

Contrarily to any common sense, floatation of electrodes might lead to an increase in the weight of the cell.
Here it is a simple experiment in supporting the above, experiment that can be checked with almost any balance. Take a glass with some water. It will weight one value. Put your finger in the water, without touching the glass. You?ll see then the glass weights more. Why? Because due to floatation (Archimedes), your finger is pushed up. But due to Pascal and Newton 2nd, this force is transmitted through the water to the bottom of the glass, being felt as a supplementary pressure, measured by the balance as a supplementary weight.

I come back: Assuming that part of the electrodes weight is supported by the power cables and, through them, further supported by /transferred to the external setup, this part of the weight is not initially recorded by the balance. When electrolysis begins, due to the bubbles attached to the electrodes, a fraction of that part of the weight is no longer supported by the wires (and by the external setup) but is supported by the bubbles and further transferred to the balance, as per above-paragraph explanation. Hence, bubbles start to form -> balance starts indicating a weight increase.

I still have to figure out how to overcome this without all on-the-balance setup. I also can?t be 100% sure of the above, never done that except the first experiment with a common balance, but at least that?s physics say it should happen.

Pls comment,

Tinu

P.S. Also, I apologize for my limited English. If I was confusing, please indicate in which part.

Offline tinu

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2007, 12:14:10 PM »
I forgot to respond to:

When you talk of thermal dilatation effects I assume this is the whole conductor over current thing with gross degradation of the wire?

I understand that wires are relatively thin and flexible.
By thermal dilatation effects, I had in mind the following:
- a slight increase in length, linear with increase in temperature, both for the metal inside (cooper, I assume) and for the insulator;
- a decrease in stiffness (a relaxation) with an increase in temperature, probably more pronounced for the insulator (but I don?t know how this can be mathematically described). Also here can be included a tendency of the wires to curve themselves (a memory effect) in the absence of outside forces but when the temperature increases.

The above should manifest over the entire length of the cables, although only partially will be felt by the balance.
I don?t understand well ?gross degradation?. If necessary, please detail. What I can tell is that I assume the thermal effects are pretty much reversible and they do not permanently affect the wires.

I assume that the second line above may affect some experiments significantly more than the first.
Anyway, stiffness is to be manifested only if the wires are curved and, if by modification of their curvature, they will transmit supplementary forces to the balance. Therefore, in the ?hanging-by-wires? setup I proposed, stiffness should not be a concern.
And I assume also that because of the insulator, the increase in length with temperature is very small. Also this would be an advantage for the proposed hanging setup.

The other factor of main concern in the hanging setup would remain floatation. If effects are close to zero - > thermal is the cause. If effects are even more pronounced - > floatation is the candidate.

Tinu

Offline HTwoGo

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Re: Strange effect!
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2007, 08:20:04 PM »
pics

 

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