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Author Topic: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp  (Read 7124 times)

Offline Localjoe

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Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« on: June 21, 2007, 05:25:36 AM »
Well this is my first post here, I've been reading here for a while though, amazing members you guys have.  Anyways after reading the mit article the other day , i forced myself to start exp with with the idea and wanted to build a conceptual base for others and my self to collaborate on.  From what I grasp, and I could well be wrong theres a few different things at hand here that are easy to mix up, we all know how transformers work or a basic concept,  Theres wire coils and feromagnetic core. Inductance comes into play and power can be stepped up or down or isolated ect., Then we have the well known tooth brush charging base concept/ inefficient and could be not safe. So the transformer is an example with a "core" The toothbrush without. Power transfer still happens in both scenario's but the latter being much less efficient.  Mit's recent article described two large hoops, spiral, large gauge wire it seems one with ac mains and the other with a resistive load.  Now if the hoops were both the same physical dimensions i suppose its a sort of resonance if its darn near exact so mabey its acting as a wave guide, dont really know just a guess, this last sentence was just an add moment, i didnt really use my stuff in the same way for my exp. So in my exp, I took a foot and a half peice of 16gauge stranded coated wire, scrap from work and formed it in an inward sprial about 3 turns. No rocket science there, I connected the center end that i wound inward to the - on my rs 4 d battery pack holder 6v on the other end here I could connect it directly to the positive. Next I take my small coil probably 40 turns of 22g magnet wire enamled, picture the thing that spins in the diy dc motor demonstrator,  those leads are connected to a led's +  side touching either coil lead, oppisite coil lead to positive lead on multimeter, neg lead to other end of led. If i move the little coil around even 2, 3 feet above the "primary" I get a small spike on my meter probably in the range of 25 mv dc. i get this i move the top cut the lines and a little power is transfered. So i realize the difference between a dc electromagnet and an ac electromagnet and decide hmm need spark gap... dont have spark gap.... hmmm homopolar motor :-*. so on the big spiral i take the positive lead off and run it in series/hold it on the flat side of another d battery and grab my screw and a couple neymodum magnets stick them on the bottom of the screw and i use the end of the big sprial I was directly connected to before to act as a brush "just to test" to make the little skrew magnet homopolar thing spin. Now i gathered that tesla used a spark gap to make his hi freq's or oscillations, so i figured that that little magnet thing that spins would do the same thing, it goes like 3000 rpm and it did!  I was able to get at least a 1.5 v constant on the meter while the motor was spinningat top speed, and the voltage was directly proportional to the speed the magnet screw thing spins.. I need to make a nice brush armature setup but i wanted someone else to test this too and tell me what they thought.  I know this sounds a bit weird but it works and it kinda makes sense to me, so i figured why bother my girlfriend for a half hr excited explanation when i could tell you guys.  Please critizie help i dont get offended i jsut wanted to share and for all i know someone has someting way cooler.  After i understand the theroy behind this it might be cool to then understand how tesla coils transmit power inductively through the oscilations in their secondaries, and the concept of giving an adaquet load for a given input. 

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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 12:43:32 AM »
Hmmmm...

Interesting experiment! I'm sure that if you post more information about what you saw and perhaps a diagram or schematic, others will replicate your results... and based on what you're saying, you should probably look at coupling this concept with a high rpm Newman motor. If indeed its the speed that determines the output voltage, I'm sure a high RPM concept will be presented in this thread soon.

Good luck and keep it up,
~Dingus Mungus

Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 01:56:34 AM »
Dingus
         Thanks for reading, normally I would post pics right away but I was tired last night and had to work the grind today. Anyways I'm going to go take some now. Well and eat of course .. its dinner hr

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 01:56:34 AM »
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Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 04:00:49 AM »
Heres some pics only thing i dont have a photo of is the skrew with the magnet and the 5 d battery lost it somewhere on my other bench... find it soon but anyone who has seen the generic youtube homopolar clip can envision the same thing with the + leg of the d 4 pack going to the neg of the battery with the skrew magnet motor and brushed with the outer leg of the spiral, have it soon, thanks to all who have read so far.
                                                                       Joe

Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2007, 04:46:14 AM »
my attempt at a "paint"diagram sorry for the crudeness

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2007, 04:46:14 AM »
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Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2007, 06:08:24 AM »
Last post for the night with a few more results, i as able to use the freq setting on my rs  meter and it was in the khz while I had the motor running climing from the low hertz range like 17 hz all the way up to about 1.25khz... kinda cool , anyways i was able to get about a 1.1 to1.3v reading for about 20 s while holding the brush still as i could ... i need real materials but for a proof this will have to suffice for now, i found tha once the thing was producing .200 mv and up it was useful to pulse the motor with about 3 sec on wiht a 1.5 sec off period as well during the off period voltage dissappears on the meter but when it comes back on the motor is able to acheieve ever higher voltage you'll see... and it is deff realitonal to the freq/ speed of motor , well .. my ears tell me so while I'm watching the voltmeter rise and hearing the little motor make the cool waaaaaaaaaaa noise thats all for now. night all
                                                          Joe

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 08:53:23 AM »
Hi Joe,
so you made this little toy motor with the whirling nail magnet
and brush and due to sparking you can induce via AC magnetic
waves into your AC receiver coil.

But did you measure the output versus input power ?

You probably draw lots of current from your 4 D cells and
only have millivolts in your pickup coil, so it is not very
efficient.

So output / input power will be way underunity
I guess.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 08:53:23 AM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2007, 09:12:14 AM »
Now i gathered that tesla used a spark gap to make his hi freq's or oscillations, so i figured that that little magnet thing that spins would do the same thing, it goes like 3000 rpm and it did!  I was able to get at least a 1.5 v constant on the meter while the motor was spinningat top speed, and the voltage was directly proportional to the speed the magnet screw thing spins...

Transmitter = 4 loops (spiral)
Reciever = 40 loops (coreless)

Step down of a factor of 10

Input = 6volts
Output = 1.5volts

Step down of a factor of 4

It sounds like some sort of wireless tansformer to me...
I don't know though... Its all about the load and tuning it.
Which is really close to what we're doing on the Newman machines.

Just my 2 cents,
~Dingus Mungus

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 09:27:03 AM »
Do you have a scope and PSU Joe?
It would be a lot easier if we could help you check efficiency before replicating.

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 09:27:03 AM »
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Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2007, 03:35:34 PM »
Yes ive got a bench full of equip and a boss who's a real radio tv engineer... defining factors include velcro shoes suspenders and nasa tv all day.  Anyways im the IT for a tv station and ive been working with pc's for years... after seeing what people like my boss and the other engineer here know, I felt stupid so, I'm starting to grasp some basic ee and em physics stuff and im in a great place for it, i'll take a shot of the bench here later any analog tool you could ever want to use and a few digital. Ive got ready access to a 1.5 a up to 50v dc psu variable with analog dials, umm... a few diff variac's, tho ive never used one plenty of scopes and and freq generators a cap tester nice one .. Anyways, steffan thanks for your response some things im still trying to grasp is the diff between a tesla style spark gap and that homopolar im using now in essence ac mains come into the tesla spark gap, dc mains come into mine and i only Have one arc point as opposed to his many but the spark gap in tesla world controlled the speed at which the oscilations moved in the secondary, I could be wrong. On that same token if i take DC mains and use what im using, am I making hf pulsed dc this way? how could it be ac at that point? Or does that come as a side effect of the homopolar polarity flipping opperation. Another thing that I didn't really notice untill last night is that when i put a small rs aligator clip from the pos on the sprial to the little peice of brush wire I was using it still spun but barley showed anything on the meter like 15mv barley, when I used the end of the sprial to brush it, it worked again and when I wrapped the small brush wire peice I found from a pc psu directlly to the sprial it worked so the motor spun in both senarios but only induced voltage in the secondary when it travled through well i guess its either certian kinds of wire or distance from primary anyways like i said the duty rating on my meter was upwards of 1.123 khz last night. As well last nights replication was sustainable 1.3 to 1.5 v and i just need to take the time to make a little stablizing armature with a few other magnets and i will reduce the friction on this thing 10-1 i used a steel mouse ball about 2 inches below my homopolar, just enough for it to stablize the magnets vertically with out spinning around the little nub on the battery, homopolars of that demo sort are just trick in the sense of finding the right "skrew/axel" ammt of gauss force .. eg strengh of mags used, and if theres a weight load on the skrew mag itself to weight it at the center. As well, am i limiting myself to that almost 1.5 v because of the led as load on the small induction side? Thanks for your help folks ive been able to do this multiple times now and I've had a few replys so I'm excited. I know this maynot be an over unity project but so many of them include induction principals and other things like hf generators ect , I wanted to progress with this till i understood what mad it work and i could draw flux diagram .. something ive seen rarely on the tpu page so as a  side note i propose for instance liek flyns parallel path electromagnet has a flux path diagram we start using those more readily beaause i see all thes projects by people not even taking that idea into acct and there still geting results, if beginners like myself and others use flux path or flow diagrams in addition to our circuit specs and other things i think it would be the next step of accutally making some device that one could say he truly understood on both levels and mabey use those tools like parallel path tech and flux path routing to turn a great device to a greater one.. the thing that makes me say this is the darn pyrmiad model.. take 4 steel mouse balls take 18 small neo mag cylinders mabey quarter in by 1/16 with opp pol so they all attract form a closed loop triangle with them the balls at that point should be monopoles.... take the remaining 9 mags same pol down to all the balls so all 3 little stacks have the same pole facing up, stick your 4th ball on the top if you did it right, take a skrewdriver and touch all 3 balls the base... notice anyhting funny there not magnetic anymore but toch the top and you can lift the whole structure? hmmmmmmm which means magnetic current can be routed as well as electrical.w

Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2007, 12:23:34 AM »
Well I answered one of my questions from earlier, didn't have time at work to use the scope I can go back this weekend if necessary, been a long week tho

     Anyways while at work I had one of the other guys hold my little induction coil with the led about 2 feet above the primary and I manually brushed the homo polar. It was going from 2.6v and I was seeing 3 v every time I got it a little more stable, moral of the story the voltage doe sent climb as fast unless I pulse the thing meaning not holding the wire continuously on the outer side of the magnet but a little on and a little off showed a climbing voltage each time took about a min or 1:30 secs of pulsing action to get latest voltage readings. I might be able to take a small movie if that would help anyone, or skype cam i have a samsung mini dv or a webcam samsung will look way nice if i upload it but if someone here wants to do a confrence skype or webcam session id welcome the colaboration. 

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2007, 12:23:34 AM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2007, 12:53:25 AM »
Joe I highly recomend you join in our Newman spark gap motor replications...

I firmly believe if you replace your homopolar motor with a spark gap motor it will
drasticly improve your efficiency, but for now I would suggest using a PSU with
a rectifing diode to provide the input wattage. Then you can use parralel LED's
to determine your max output load. Once you have your *rough* efficiency worked
out then your testing will show you if each change has improved your design or not.
Also if you use a shunt and your scope we can see any HV spikes your device creates.

The spark gap motors we're building in another topic can be tuned to run at different
RPM's by adjusting the gap. They're self mechanicly switched so no need to do it by
hand if you build one. In the motor the BEMF creates RF which should broadcast nicely
from your transmitting coil. I don't think Stefan read your whole post but I was trying
to get his attention on this design. Stick with it... Once you can provide us with some
more numbers on your machine you will hopefully attract some replicators. I truely think
this idea is part of a puzzle we're working on here. You just have to get a little more leg
work done and I know others will see what I see in this.

Thanks for all info so far,
~Dingus Mungus

Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2007, 01:00:55 AM »
Thanks dingus,

Offline Localjoe

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2007, 01:12:06 AM »
accidentally hit enter ... Thanks for the input and help. You enlightened me a bit more to the workings of it. I'll be over to the Newman forum later tonight, to start reading and thinking of course ;D.  I'll use your idea to test the loads and specs as soon as i group all the parts together shouldnlt take long. For now dinner

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Coreless/ Wireless Induction exp
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2007, 02:25:23 AM »
A video or pictures like you suggested earlier will definitely help
get some attention on this device. Just please remember the
efficiency readings will have to be the cornerstone of your demo.
Hand switching will have to be tollerated untill you find the motor
design that best provides the BEMF you need to transmit.

Also the materials in which the spark is generated makes a huge
difference in the size/energy of the spark. The most suggested
materials in a commutator are graphite, copper, or aluminum.
Always use dissimular contacts as it is now believed that its the
oxidation of contacts that provides the extra RF energy output.

Like I said though, definitely get involved in the newman motor
effort and then you'll have a low consumption wattage spark gap
that will give off RF that you can transmit through your design!

My only worry is your coils... Are you using resonance to couple them?
If not you should do some research in to resonant coils... It'll improve
efficiency by quite a bit and prevent any other non resonant coils from
picking up your power transmission.

Keep up the good work,
~Dingus Mungus

 

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