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Author Topic: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1  (Read 198313 times)

George1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« on: January 28, 2019, 08:58:40 AM »
Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors-enthusiasts. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
The link above describes a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
Best regards,
George

Floor

• Guest
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 08:43:49 PM »
Sounds like a good idea.

I'm not certain that the statement that 100 % of the electrical energy through the resistive load is converted to heat energy.

Example.....

E / I = R
E / R = I
R x I = E
P = I x E
if
E  = 10 volts applied .... R = 10  (through a 10 ohm resistance) .... then I or current  = 1 amp
and Power (watts)  =  I x E = 10 volts x 1 amp = 10 watts electrical power.

However I am unfamiliar with the standard for the equivalency of electrical energy and / or electrical power
in terms of thermal energy and / or power.

1 calorie will raise the temperature of 1 cubic centimeter of water, 1 degree centigrade ? if I am  remembering correctly.

No doubt the method is more efficient than straight up resistive electric water heating alone.

Water is converted into a fuel to produce heat.
The HHO is a by product of the heating and is then used as an additional energy source / fuel  to heat the water.

Thanks
floor

George1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2019, 09:57:10 AM »
Hi Floor,
You wrote:"I'm not certain that the statement that 100 % of the electrical energy through the resistive load is converted to heat energy....However I am unfamiliar with the standard for the equivalency of electrical energy and / or electrical power in terms of thermal energy and / or power."
I am replying to you immediately.
You can search on Google using the phrase "Joule heating". 5,440,000 results will appear after 0.38 seconds. The first result is the article "Joule heating" in Wikipedia. In a subsection of this article, called "Heating efficiency", it is written that: "As a heating technology, Joule heating has a coefficient of performance of 1.0, meaning that every joule of electrical energy supplied produces one joule of heat." (The term "cofficient of performance" in this particular case is equivalent to the term "efficiency".) Alternatively, you can use any of these 5,440,000 Google results. A good article can be found also in the link https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule%27s_laws
So you can be absolutely sure that "...every joule of electrical energy supplied produces one joule of heat."
Best regards,
George

George1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2019, 01:07:47 PM »
Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors-enthusiasts. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
The link above describes a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
Best regards,
George

F6FLT

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 405
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 11:25:59 AM »
Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors-enthusiasts. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
...
The second case is false. You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat.
If overunity were so childish, it would have been known for a long time! We'll have to be much smarter.

George1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 05:04:05 PM »
To F6FLT.
--------------
You greatly surprise me, my friend! You are an expert in mechanics as well as in electric engineering! (And may be in any other field of technology?)
You have written: "  You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat." There is no sense in this composition of words. This is for example something like the following sentence: " The Moon is black and it walks around the green tree." Grammatically correct, but absurd.

George1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 09:12:27 AM »
Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
The link above describes a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
Best regards,
George

lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5031
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 01:16:27 PM »
Only"Q"~ heater efficiency nearly 100% ,  "Q+H" ~ electrolyzer, catalyzer : efficiency over 100%
A. How many parts from "H": 33 KWh are double calculated from the "Q": 50 KWh  ?
a1: only calculation or physical measured ?

When not only "resistive heater"= pure Joule change then catalytic Joule process possibility :
Sincerely
OCWL

George1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 884
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 03:19:21 PM »
Hi lancaIV/OCWL,
1) Actually I did not understand some parts of your text. Would you be so polite to make some parts of your message a little clearer?
2) Electric energy E=VxIxt (which is generated by the battery) transforms ENTIRELY into Joule's heat (which is generated by the resistor) as Joule's heat=Q=IxIxRxt. And this fact is valid for a solid resistor as well as for a liquid resistor. In other words, (a) if you put a resistor into a closed box and (2) if your voltmeter and ammeter show that V=const and I=const, then you will not be able to guess whether the resistor inside the box is solid or liquid. Ohm's law and Joule's first law are valid for any solid resistor as well as for any liquid resistor. However a liquid resistor like the electrolyte, used for electrolysis of water, generates hydrogen in addition.
3) Physically measured. At the inlet we measured V, I and t by using a voltmeter, an ammeter and a chronometer, respectively. At the outlet we carried out ENTIRELY CALORIMETRIC experiments by measuring (a) the heat generated by the electrolyte and (b) the heat generated by the burning of hydrogen. We used a standard calorimeter -- nothing special.
Best regards,
George

gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4137
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2019, 12:23:37 PM »
Hi George,

You have an interesting idea of heating up electrolyte by DC input and utilize the heat and also utilize the heat from the burning Hidrogen received from the electrolysis too.

Would like to ask that from the tests what was the result? What efficiency numbers did you find which were consistently higher than 1? How much uncertainty do you think may have occured when checking the heat quantity the Hidrogen provided? What method did you follow for estimating it?  (The heat developed in the electrolyte is easy to measure by a calorimeter of course.)

You did not mention Oxigen in the paper while it is also created during the electrolysis process, I suppose.  Or you found that burning only the created Hidrogen already pushes overall efficiency > 1 ?
I would also be curious about the DC current level used for heating the electrolyte.

Thanks,  (I know I have many questions...)
Gyula

Floor

• Guest
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2019, 09:54:42 PM »
OK, I have certainty of the equivalencies of electrical energy to heat energy due to electrical resistance.
Thanks.

That your method would produce more heat than electric heating alone... is based
in sound / conventional principles.

But don't you know that...  its not over unity,  it just means the standard of electric to heat equivalency would be changed ...  SMILE

(Opinion) Odds are very good that it is correct.

I agree with  others / think it would be interesting to see measurements.
On the other hand...........
The volume of HHO gases that can be conventionally produced... and the caloric content of their combustion
are probably well know / documented.   HHO experimenters / experts on this forum might provide links ??
Also.........
The O and H gases and any water vapor,  will remove heat from that electrolit / water, as they leave the solution, just as
ordinary evaporation reduces the temperature of the surface it evaporates from.
But.......
those calories which are contained in the H and O will also increase the temperature of their own combustion.

The same fire fueled by hot air is hotter than if fueled by cold air.

Regards
floor

F6FLT

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 405
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 01:23:49 PM »
To F6FLT.
--------------
You greatly surprise me, my friend! You are an expert in mechanics as well as in electric engineering! (And may be in any other field of technology?)
You have written: "  You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat." There is no sense in this composition of words. This is for example something like the following sentence: " The Moon is black and it walks around the green tree." Grammatically correct, but absurd.

We are very impressed by the power of your argument:  nothing on the subject, only an ad hominem answer. Not only did you not understand the objection, but you did not even understand that you did not understand your subject.

I am not an "expert". These things are studied in junior high school, with water electrolysis. Even undergraduate students know this. There is no need to be an expert to see the absurdities of your proposals. This kind of idea seems good to unskilled people, because they don't see what prevents it to work, it's a matter of ignorance. Your announcements of perpetual motion are childish non senses above all pretentious, and I said why: the oxidation-reduction potentials reduce the effective potential difference really used for heating, skilled people will understand. An experimenter can check it by measuring the potential difference with each electrode of the voltmeter placed in the solution near each electrode powering the solution, but without touching them.
I'll change my mind about the vacuousness of your pseudo-inventions when you present us with a working realization from you, and measurements, rather than gibberish.

Floor

• Guest
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 08:09:54 PM »
We are very impressed by the power of your argument:  nothing on the subject, only an ad hominem answer. Not only did you not understand the objection, but you did not even understand that you did not understand your subject.

I am not an "expert". These things are studied in junior high school, with water electrolysis. Even undergraduate students know this. There is no need to be an expert to see the absurdities of your proposals. This kind of idea seems good to unskilled people, because they don't see what prevents it to work, it's a matter of ignorance. Your announcements of perpetual motion are childish non senses above all pretentious, and I said why: the oxidation-reduction potentials reduce the effective potential difference really used for heating, skilled people will understand. An experimenter can check it by measuring the potential difference with each electrode of the voltmeter placed in the solution near each electrode powering the solution, but without touching them.
I'll change my mind about the vacuousness of your pseudo-inventions when you present us with a working realization from you, and measurements, rather than gibberish.

@ F6flt

Yes there is plenty of pseudo science on this board and some good science as well.

But , the tone of your comments are .....  insulting, rude,  totally unnecessary and unwelcome.

We have had plenty of these kinds of disrupting comments over the course of the boards
existence.  It doesn't help any thing. It only impedes the spirit of exploration and learning.

1. If the temperature of the electrolyte changes (up or Down), then its electrical resistance changes with it.

2. If the resistance across the water / electrolyte changes (up or Down), then the electrical power
input changes with it.

............ simply put

Is the  rate at which           electrical energy   is converted  to    heat energy,     WITHIN AN ELECTROLYTE,
decreased due to the  electrolyzing of the water into HHO,
for reasons other than;
1. caloric loss due to evaporated water
2. caloric loss due to the heat energy content in the removed HHO

Simple yes or no answer to be researched and presented / documented.

No Insulting language needed.

floor

F6FLT

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 405
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 10:54:36 AM »
@Floor

"No sense in this composition of words" or "grammatically correct, but absurd", without any technical justification, when I spoke of oxido-reduction potentials, is insulting. The ironic "You are an expert in mechanics as well as in electric engineering!" is insulting, it's an ad hominem argument. It was not from me. I only answered on the same tone.

You are right to say that "we have had a lot of disruptive comments like that" and "pseudo-science". When it is related to ignorance, it is acceptable. We are all ignorant at one level or another.  But it would require the intelligence to understand that we are ignorant, the modesty to recognize our ignorance and the desire to progress.
When a guy claims almost every week to have discovered overunity in one system or another, without ever having studied the subject he is talking about closely, without ever having built a single device or made a single measurement, it is clear that he is not in a research process, but in the spreading of silly simplistic ideas to satisfy his puffy ego. It's only pollution.

Why should we kindly accept that all these guys are polluting this forum? I notice that this forum has years behind it and still not the slightest practical realization of free energy, that everyone can duplicate. I think that these people have a part of the responsibility for this failure, by disrupting and diverting human energies from their purpose, by attracting even more useless people who recognize themselves in them, and due to their nonsense, by dissuading competent people from coming here.
We must treat them for what they do in order to reduce their nuisances, and quickly send them back to their misplaced self-centredness, their technical incompetence, incurable because they do not want to become aware of it, and their intellectual nothingness.

Normally, to make the stupidity of the original idea understood, it is sufficient here to provide as a key the notion of "oxidation-reduction potential". Anyone of goodwill, and learning about this, will understand why an electrolytic solution is not a simple resistance that will heat according to U=RI and at the same time provide hydrogen! Obviously, when you are unwilling, incompetent and worse, without any desire to understand but only to appear smarter than you are, you don't even want to know which doors open the key you have been given, it's not your problem, you just want to parade in front of the audience, affirming in the name of your ignorant ego and in capital letters, instead of modest and prudent hypothesis,"EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1".

Here was my position, and my method, Floor, and I respect yours, we don't have to all have the same.

nelsonrochaa

• Hero Member
• Posts: 665
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 07:17:20 PM »
@ F6flt

Yes there is plenty of pseudo science on this board and some good science as well.

But , the tone of your comments are .....  insulting, rude,  totally unnecessary and unwelcome.

We have had plenty of these kinds of disrupting comments over the course of the boards
existence.  It doesn't help any thing. It only impedes the spirit of exploration and learning.

1. If the temperature of the electrolyte changes (up or Down), then its electrical resistance changes with it.

2. If the resistance across the water / electrolyte changes (up or Down), then the electrical power
input changes with it.

............ simply put

Is the  rate at which           electrical energy   is converted  to    heat energy,     WITHIN AN ELECTROLYTE,
decreased due to the  electrolyzing of the water into HHO,
for reasons other than;
1. caloric loss due to evaporated water
2. caloric loss due to the heat energy content in the removed HHO

Simple yes or no answer to be researched and presented / documented.

No Insulting language needed.

floor

In time, we had someone in the forum with this same type of behavior and rudeness. I just hope that guy (MH)  have not changed their nickname .......
An opinion or clarification, does not encompass, trample, or reduce another opinion through propitiousness in a response.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion, since opinion provided , not exceed the limit of the reasonable.
it seems we have yet another enlightened limb of wisdom. lol