To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

Storing Cookies (See : ) help us to bring you our services at . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method  (Read 4665 times)

Offline SkyWatcher123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« on: June 09, 2017, 08:51:06 PM »
Hi all, some time has passed since this information was shared with me, things in life tend to distract us for various reasons, though i have been briefly looking and testing this charging method and it is looking quite interesting.
It was shared on my thread at the other forum, garry stanley shared the information.
Here is his quote:
"You all seem to still be looking for output either from this or using this as a drive unit so perhaps you can understand it using batteries ...take 2 1.5 volt penlight cells or whatever you have and place them in series ... this will show you 3 volts on your meter check each one to make sure its 1.5 and then put them back together with the 2 + heads touching and measure across the - ends and you get nothing yet both batteries still retain their 1.5 volts interesting thing happens if you then add a third battery to this line matter which way round you add it you still get 1.5 volts because you have now unbalanced the original 2 batteries...
this leads to something you might want to give a go and that is when charging batteries always start with 0 volts do this by ...if you are using 3 x 12 volt cells get another 3 and place them in the line but backwards so you have +-+-+--+-+-+ totaling to 0 volts this means every single volt you produce from your charging device in either direction is more than your battery pack has and therefore is collected as charge eg you now only need 1 volt to have enough to charge a 36 volt pack.
Put meters on both sets when charging and you will always see one set start to rise even with the smallest amount of output.
Hope this helps some of you.

Last night, i used two 12 volt tractor batteries and one AA 1.2 volt nimh rechargeable cell, it is a 2650 mah cell.
Both 12 volt tractor batteries were fully charged, then i placed a 12 volt led bulb as load, across one of the 12 volt batteries, battery B, to drain it down, i did this for 3 hours, so around 21 watts used in that battery.
Then let it rest for a few hours.
The resting voltage of Battery B was 12.57 volts.
The resting voltage of Battery C was 12.68 volts.
I then placed the AA 1.2 volt cell in the unbalanced position, so that Battery C and the AA cell are in series.
This then charges Battery B and the AA cell starts out under load at around .8 volts, then rises as Battery B charges up.
This charging method appears to be very efficient and all i can say at this time, is try it for yourselves.
Both 12 volt tractor batteries are resting at 12.70 volts right now, they are connected in parallel to equalize them.
I will post a circuit drawing in a bit, as soon as i get it drawn, though it is quite simple.
peace love light

Offline SkyWatcher123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 12:26:38 AM »
Hi all, here is some more information shared by Garry.
While in these posts he shared, he doesn't exactly explain how to use only 1 volt to charge large banks of higher voltage batteries, only using 1 volt, he does explain further the principle of the method.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
peace love light

Watt's The Catch.
By believing one see's
 My objective with my motor experiments has been to avoid transforming the voltage to charge the battery and to build a motor or generator with just enough output to charge the battery at the rate the motor was drawing it, effectively enduing up with a self runner.
 Along the way I have been very close to this on many occasions, with my best effort coming from my first motor, this managed to run for 4 hours without the voltage in the battery dropping at all.
 Some said 4 hours is nothing and 4 weeks would be something and of course they are right, but you have to sleep sometime and the way my first motor is slung together doesn’t allow for just wandering off and leaving it running.
 On the second motor  I spent several weeks, full time, trying to get back to this point without any real success and I concluded that there was something going on at an atomic level that was preventing recharge.
 Again there were some interesting suggestions as to why this might be, the one I thought longest about was " it might be that there is a lack of electrons in the circuit and that maybe I had to add some more".
 The final answer for this was to use the output to run a bulb and then encapsulate this bulb in a container with a solar cell to charge the battery, so that the electron circuit recharging the battery was totally separate from the drive circuit.
 A while later I realised just how ridiculous this electron shortage idea was, but never the less, a totally separate recharge circuit couldn’t really hurt, except for the losses that were sure to be incurred, due to the inefficiency of the solar cell.
 I was just thinking that maybe I needed to look at the output from another angle and perhaps consider it as a whole, Watts, instead of the volts and amps, when I had the realization, that something was wrong with the way the generator interacts with a battery when you are trying to recharge it.
 To understand this we are going to have to do some maths.
 Lets say our battery is 12 volts, this means the first 12 volts that the generator makes is wasted and goes nowhere because, before any extra power made can over power the power in the battery and start the charging process there must be at least 12 volts made to match the existing power in the battery.
 You could perhaps imagine the battery as a 12 story building, before you can build the thirteenth floor you need a crane that is already more than 12 stories high to lift the materials to build the new floor.
 The higher the building gets the more time it takes the crane to lift the materials.
 This is the resulting speed difference that is seen with the battery on charge not slowing the motor and the bulb in its place slowing it too a crawl.
 So now lets apply some specs to our generator and for the sake of argument, say that it puts out 13 volts at 1 amp and the battery is 12 volts with an 11 amp hour rating.
 This in effect means that the generator will take 11 hours to charge our battery if it is flat.
 Now imagine that the generator doesn’t actually put out 13 volts and lets say it puts out 1 volt, this would mean we have 13 amps.
 In reality this 1 volt is all we are using from this generator to charge the battery, but it doesn’t charge because the voltage isn’t high enough to cause recharge, even though we have enough amps to charge the battery in under an hour.
 Now most people extract voltage from their generators in order to have enough to charge their battery and this is the fundamental mistake they make time and time again.
 The battery, no matter what its voltage relies on the underlying charge in amperes to drive something
 If we want to convert our 1 volt at 13 amps, which is enough to charge the battery in under an hour, to a suitable voltage to actually charge the battery, we need to make the voltage 13 volts and we are back to having only 1 amp, so it takes 11 hours to charge our battery.
 This is because to increase voltage by a factor, in this case 13, amperage is depleted by the same factor to achieve this, while wattage stays the same over all.
 I now have a problem 1 volt x 13 amps is 13 watts and 13 volts x 1 amp is 13 watts but 12 volts at 11 amps is 132 watts and 132 / 13 = 10.2 so according to watts I need to take 10.2 hours to charge this battery, amps says under an hour and volts says 11 hours …very interesting.
 Ok I figured it out to have 13 volts at 1 amp all 13 1 volt batteries must contain 1 amp so to get 1 amp hour at 13 volts actually requires 13 amps, so the real wattage of 13 I amp hour cells is not 13 watts its 169 watts.
 So the OU factor of a battery is watts x time eg the total watts is transformed into the relative voltage to charge and then we are left with a far greater amount of time that it takes and this is without dealing with any losses incurred along the way.
 Ok lets go back to our 12 volt battery and examine it.
 What we actually have is 6 x 2 volt cells making up our 12 volts.
 So what if we tap our battery on every cell and treat it as what it is, we have 1 volt times 2 to get the 2 volts we need to charge and that leaves us with 7.5 amps to put into our batteries so now instead of having to wait 11 hours for this battery to charge we only have to wait about 1 and a half hours.
 Now these figures are a little loose as you can see but the principle is the same.
 If we now say that the motor causes a 1 amp load at 12 volts to run the generator a charged battery under the given circumstances is going to take 11 hours to run down while the generator can recharge them in 1.5 hours.
 Now if we are using this motor for something else as well, like say running a car, the load of the generator in real life wouldn’t leave us this scope in these simple figures here and the generator charging at this rate would almost certainly leave nothing to drive the vehicle.
 This leaves au a little room to move again sticking with the numbers lets say that the load of driving the car is 2 amps, this means the battery will be flat in 5 and a half hours but the generator can still charge it in 1.5 hours.
 We can now gear down the generator 3 to 1 and reduce the load by a factor of 3, leaving more power to drive the car.
 According to these numbers which are of course fanciful there is still an hour up our sleeves should we encounter too many hills on our drive where the battery is sitting there ready and waiting to be swapped into service.
 In the real world the average generator is going to output about 2 thirds of what it takes to drive it at a given speed.
 If it takes 12 volts at 3 amps to make 2000 rpm then at 2000 rpm the output of this motor as a generator, is going to be 12 volts 2 amps at best, probably 8 volts 2 amps.
 Now if we apply the theory above to this setup and split the charging battery into its 6 x 2 volt cells and charge them at 2 volts instead of 12 volts we actually in real world terms have 8 amps to put back in.
The motor draws only 3 amps leaving us 5 amps to spare.
 If we now reduce the load of the motor by decreasing the generator speed at 2 to 1 we now have an almost 50% of generator load we can use for an outside use in the real world and almost 50% additional load we can add before we reach a point where the drive battery will go flat before the charging battery has charged.
 Again these are rough figures but once you start thinking about this the right way you can see the value of it.
 Imagine 1 volt at 13 amps going into 12 x 1 volt cells you would almost have the entire 13 amps free to recharge the battery.
 Ok lets make this easy and say that we have a 12 volt battery and it is running a generator that outputs 13 volts at 1 amp the motor driving the generator draws 12 volts at 2 amps which means with no recharge going back to the battery from the generator it will be flat in 5 hours.
 But in 5 hours we will have recharged another battery enough to carry on running the motor for a further 2.5 hours so the total run time for our motor under this load is 7.5 hours from the 10 amp battery.
 Now if we split the charging battery into its 2 volt cells and we only need 2 volts to recharge these the amount of amps going into the battery is 6 amps so now the maths looks like OU because we are drawing 2 amps to make 6 but there is no useful work occurring.
 Because we now have 3 times the amps needed to drive the motor we can now extract 4 amps from this system to do real work or we could gear down the generator 3 to 1 and use 2 thirds of the motor output for work.


Watt's up ?
Electricity is a strange beast at best, like fire it can keep you warn one day and cook you alive the next.
We are trained to view power as watt's, our household appliances are rated in watts and our power meter reads watts, which are then charged as units of 1000 watts called kilowatts this is again complicated by being changed to kwh or kilo watt hours.
1 kilo watt hour is when you use 1000 watts for 1 hour.
Batteries are rated in amp hours, which means a battery rated 120 amp hours, should last for 120 hours if you only load it with 1 amp draw, but I notice that this has changed lately and new car batteries no longer come with an amp hour rating on them, while deep cycle batteries still seem to.
A watt is a total of 2 power components, amps and volts, and these are the deciding factors of what power you have or use.
To get watts you take amps and multiply by volts or volts and multiply by amps 1 12 volt motor drawing 1 amp is using 12 watts and a 120 volt motor drawing 2 amps is using 240 watts.
This means your 100 watt light bulb is drawing 0.83 amps if you use a 120 volt system and 0.41 amps if you are on 240 volts.
No matter what your house power, be it 120 volts or 240 volts the 100 watt light bulb uses the same amount of power but a different make up of volts and amps to attain the 100 watts.
The same 100 watt bulb run from a 12 volt battery would draw 8.33 amps.
The idea here is to give you an understanding of the difference between volts and amps, so that you may better understand power in the real world, rather than being limited to the description that you have come to accept for power.
If you take a single battery like an AA battery and place a wire from the + to the negative, the battery starts to lose power fast and the wire gets hot.
If you take a couple of small batteries of the same size like a pair of AA batteries and place a wire between the + of one and the + of the other and now doe the same at the - end, you have the same thing, there is a complete circuit from the + of each battery through the other battery to the - but this time no power is lost from the batteries and the wire doesn’t get hot.
Now take an AA battery and a C battery and do the same, you can see that there is more power in a C battery its about 3 times the size of the AA battery so surely if the C battery has more power than the AA battery some must flow through the wire to the AA battery ?
 What you see here in the first example is that voltage was able to connect because + was wired to - and as soon as voltage was able connect amperage was able to flow over the voltage connection and because more amperage was able to flow than the wire could handle the wire got hot.
 If you repeat this experiment with a larger wire you will see that the wire takes longer to get hot the bigger it gets and eventually you will find a wire size that will not get hot at all.
 In the second part of this experiment with 2 batteries what you can see is that the voltage in one battery is pushing against the voltage in the other battery and no power flows over the wire so it doesn’t get hot, this is because the 2 batteries in this test are the same voltage.
 The third part of this test is similar to the second part but again no power flows across the wire and again this is because the voltage of the batteries is the same, the power difference in these batteries is not in the voltage at all but in the amperage and the C battery in this test holds more power than the AA battery but because this is all power stored as amperage none of it will flow because it hasn’t got enough voltage to make a connection.
 So before any amperage can flow there must be a voltage connection.
This is like saying the exchange has to connect your call to the person you are calling before you can talk to them but once connected you can talk as much as you like.
 The analogy I was taught at school was to look at it like a pipe that had water in it where voltage was the water pressure and amperage was how much water (volume) could come through the pipe.
 And this is pretty much a good way to look at it, but above we have determined beyond doubt that it is amperage that causes the wire to heat, and as the wire heats it looses its ability to conduct power and so we have catch 22, it keeps getting worse.
 So perhaps we need to start looking at this as a dam instead of a pipe, the pipe is limited to how much water can flow through it just as the wire is limited to how much amperage can flow through it.
 The dam on the other hand is far wider than the pipe and it would only take the water to get a little above the top for it to flow the same amount over the wider face of the dam, as could flow through a narrow pipe and so we see how using increased voltage reduces the amps while still using the same amount of overall watts.
 The dam scenario is far better than the pipe for understanding power flow, while the pipe is a good analogy of power flow in a wire.
 When the water in a dam increase to 1 mm past the level of the dam it flows over and to be 1mm over the top of the dam, it has to be over in the whole lake behind the dam so now there is a huge amount of water that will flow over the dam very quickly until the whole lake comes back down to below the dam height.
 This is the way amperage really behaves in the power factor, the dam represents voltage and once water gets over the dam height water flows, just as the amperage flows unhindered until the voltage like the water level drops.
 Why bother with this ?
Well there is a lot of controversy and misunderstanding when it comes to understanding power.
 A 6 volt 10 amp battery charger will not charge a 12 volt battery for instance, knowing this is one thing, but understanding it is another and from the above you should have understanding that while the charger puts out 60 watts not a single watt will flow to the battery from the charger because the amps cant flow until they have a voltage path, so as long as the charger is below the battery voltage it will never charge the battery.
 From here we must move to mains power versus battery power.
Lets first even the playing field by saying that even though one is AC and the other is DC, that for the purposes of this explanation it doesn’t matter, and that while there will be losses incurred these are not included or considered in this experiment.
 Take a motor and measure its draw, for the purpose of this test lets say that the motor is 240 volt DC and draws 1 amp this would make it a 240 watt motor and as 746 watts is one horse power, this would be a one third of a horse power motor, for those wanting to compare it with this range of motors.
 So we plug this motor into the 240 volt mains with a AC - DC converter and run it for 1 hour.
The total draw from the mains is 1 amp or 240 watts.
Now lets do this same test again with 20 12 volt batteries, wired in series to make the same 240 volts.
 After the motor has run for an hour drawing the same 1 amp or 240 watts, we find that something very interesting has happened to the batteries each battery is missing an 12 amps, but when we go down further as each battery is made from 6 2 volt cells we find each cell is missing 2 amps, but stranger still each volt is missing 1 amp.
 How can this be we only drew 1 amp ?
The answer is quite simple watts.
 Volts times amps equals watts, so if we start with 240 volts times 1 amp we get 240 watts and if we take 12 amps times the 20 batteries, 240 and if we go to 2 volts for the cells its 2 volts times 6 cells per battery times 20 equals 240 watts and at single voltage level there are 240 volts times 1 amp is again 240 watts.
 Well we have seen that voltage plays a major part in current draw but really this is something you again knew.
To make this information work for you we move to a generator and again for the purposes of ease of understanding we will specify that our generator output is 240 volts at 1 amp.
 Knowing that not a single amp will flow back to the batteries, until the voltage is surpassed, the generator has to get to a very high speed before a single amp of charge flows back into the batteries.
 If we change the way we look at this and charge the batteries at the 1 volt level, suddenly we have a cascade of amperage flowing back to replace the amperage removed and even though the generator hasn’t actually changed output the batteries charge faster due to the cascading amperage flowing from a far lower speed in the generator rather than just at its top speed.
 The reason for this is battery related.
When batteries are in series each battery has a resistance and the charge enters the positive end and is slowly distributed across the battery cells.
 By charging each cell individually there is no resistance of all the cells before it and there is no time difference between the charge entering the first battery and working its way to the last battery and no loss due to resistance.












Offline antijon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2017, 03:22:17 PM »
Hey, I read this over a couple of times and still don't understand how charging the batteries in parallel would be faster. Whether it's batteries in series charged with a high voltage, or parallel charged with a low voltage, the charging time is still the same.

I mean, he talks about the resistance of batteries in series... well yeah, batteries in series have a higher resistance, but that's why a higher voltage is used to charge them. It's the same thing. I don't think Mr. Stanley understands.  ???

Also, when you charged your battery with a AA battery in series with a 12v battery, you do realize that you charged the battery with 13.5v, right? You essentially made a battery charger. Look everything he said is just a misunderstanding of the way we normally see things. For instance, a 12v battery on a 13.5v charger only sees 1.5v anyway. There's no reason to try to charge a battery with a AA like you did. It's inefficient and wastes a AA.

A couple problems to consider: Lead acid batteries voltage is not an accurate way to determine power spent. Battery voltage is based on a chemical reaction, and they have a tendency to climb back up even after a heavy load. Basically, it's not a capacitor.

Also, the only way to charge a battery faster is to increase to charger voltage. This is detrimental to any battery.

And, a battery running a motor for 11 hours then charging in less time is completely possible, but it's not OU.  ;)

Offline SkyWatcher123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2017, 04:59:16 PM »
Hi antijon, i only made one test with this idea to charge batteries, so i can't say anything conclusive and i see your points.
Actually, these explanations of his, were more meant for explaining some of the effects in his motor configuration, which was reduced lentz upon energizing a pulsed motor coil.
peace love light

Offline antijon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2017, 07:00:49 PM »
Ah okay. I'm not familiar with his motors or pulse motors in general. But he claimed no success in his designs.  ???

Offline SkyWatcher123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 07:05:34 AM »
Hi all, ran another experiment with a new type of circuit.
Results seem interesting.
peace love light

Offline wistiti

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
Re: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 03:06:01 PM »
Thank you for sharing Sky!
Just let you know im playing with your first setup since few day and im impressed by the result ( the both 12v batt seem to gain in voltage...)
I will also try your last circuit. :D

Offline SkyWatcher123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: 1 Volt Unbalanced Charging Method
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 06:21:32 PM »
Hi wistiti, thanks for sharing, glad you're trying this out, something interesting is happening, though i need to run more tests to know more.
My last test, the charge battery was slowly climbing and was at 12.78 volts, from 12.60 volts, while the primary battery started at 12.61 and dropped to 12.57 volts under load.
While this charging process was occurring, the capacitor had 20 millivolts, then as charge battery increased in voltage, the capacitor had around 100 millivolts.
It's almost like a battery transistor, where a small signal is injected from the capacitor (base)and we have a much larger flow through the emitter (primary battery) and the collector (charge battery).
peace love light
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:44:24 PM by SkyWatcher123 »