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Author Topic: MH's ideal coil and voltage question  (Read 487888 times)

partzman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1530 on: July 03, 2016, 08:48:18 PM »

No, I do not see a problem.  I see an inherent negative feedback mechanism and the reason di is limited to and maintained at precisely .8A/s.

Consider what happens upon application of the 4 volt EMF.  Current begins to flow thru the inductor and...

1.  As di reaches a rate of change equal to .8A/s, the CEMF becomes equal to 4 volts.

2.  As per "B)" in the drawing, as the CEMF becomes equal to the EMF, di also reduces towards zero.

3.  But if di becomes less than .8A/s, the CEMF also becomes less than 4 volts which allows di to increase. 

4.  Return to number 1 above (loop forever)

Although described above in a rather step-wise fashion, it is, in reality, a smooth and continuous process and a classic example of a negative feedback loop.

Thanks for taking the time to post the drawings.  By all means, enjoy the 4th!

PW

Added:

Also note that I believe it more appropriate for L2 to be replaced with a simple conductor (wire).  Having an inductor inside a "model" of an inductor is redundant and could lead to confusion.

I would replace L2 with a wire and then place a dotted line box surrounding both the CEMF Vsource and the wire with di indicated.  The entire dotted line box would then be labeled as L2.

(I would also label the value for CEMF1 as Xv or Xv1 because the only time the CEMF=4volts is when di=.8A/s)

I don't have the time to comment on the above except to say that you still have a math fudge with your definition of Cemf=L*di/dt in order for your model to work.

So, I've attached a new model that may satisfy all requirements.  No time to go into detail but I think it is self explanatory.

pm

picowatt

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1531 on: July 03, 2016, 09:57:52 PM »
But then, perhaps not...

Partzman,

There was no "math fudge" needed, everything worked perfectly just as it was.

As for your new model that apparently requires 3 separate types of EMF, you've completely lost me...

Your notation "D", in particular, is most confusing.

PW

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1532 on: July 04, 2016, 01:32:33 AM »
An ideal inductor sitting at rest, is essentially an ideal piece of wire. So when an ideal emf is placed across it, the current wants to instantly jump to infinity, right at t=0.

Due to the self-induced cemf however (the negative feedback), current is limited to rise at 0.8A/s (in our case with 4V and 5H).

There are two reasons the induced cemf = the applied emf:

1) The obvious reason is that the ideal voltage source is holding the inductor terminal voltage at 4V.

2) The not so obvious reason is due to the self-induction feedback process trying to be explained here.

To explain further, try thinking about the process right from the very beginning. As I said above, the moment Vin is applied, the current will try to instantly go to infinity. We know however that simultaneously, the inductor is self-inducing an opposing emf which is going to cause the current to increase at a set rate determined by Vin and L. This is the feedback mechanism that makes an inductor what it is. The inductor doesn't limit current, it limits the change in current. Any change in current is reflected in a corresponding opposing emf, which opposes the applied emf. In the case when R=0, the emf and cemf are always equal. The cemf settles or equalizes to the same value as the applied emf.

And so in a real coil,the CEMF dose not equal the EMF,due to the resistance value of the windings-as i said some time back.
If CEMF did equal the EMF in a real coil,then why not the same feed back as an ideal coil free from winding resistance?.
We know that in a real coil,the current is not limited,and will rise to the steady state value,and so the CEMF cannot be equal to the EMF.


Brad

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1533 on: July 04, 2016, 01:52:43 AM »
And so in a real coil,the CEMF dose not equal the EMF,due to the resistance value of the windings-as i said some time back.
Yes, with a real coil at t=0 the cemf=emf, and yet, current flows. I've mentioned this a number of times now.

Quote
If CEMF did equal the EMF in a real coil,then why not the same feed back as an ideal coil free from winding resistance?.
There is feedback as well with real coils. You can see the current is rising at 0.8A/s for the first 200ms when R=1 Ohm. After this point the voltage begins to trade off with the resistor until finally ALL the voltage is across the R. It started out with ALL the voltage across the L. Do you wish me to repost the sim result showing the 1 Ohm trace tracking the 1p Ohm trace for the first 200ms?

Quote
We know that in a real coil,the current is not limited,and will rise to the steady state value,and so the CEMF cannot be equal to the EMF.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but it is wrong. What do you mean the current is not limited? Of course it is; in fact it is limited in two different ways: 1) a maximum of 0.8A/s current rate of rise, 2) a maximum current of Vin/R.

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1534 on: July 04, 2016, 07:00:11 AM »
Yes, with a real coil at t=0 the cemf=emf, and yet, current flows. I've mentioned this a number of times now.
There is feedback as well with real coils. You can see the current is rising at 0.8A/s for the first 200ms when R=1 Ohm. After this point the voltage begins to trade off with the resistor until finally ALL the voltage is across the R. It started out with ALL the voltage across the L. Do you wish me to repost the sim result showing the 1 Ohm trace tracking the 1p Ohm trace for the first 200ms?
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but it is wrong. What do you mean the current is not limited? Of course it is; in fact it is limited in two different ways: 1) a maximum of 0.8A/s current rate of rise, 2) a maximum current of Vin/R.

As i said, the CEMF cannot be equal to the EMF like it is with the ideal coil.
What i ment by current flow not being limited,was to that like the ideal coil,where the current is !apparently! limited to 800mA /second. As the winding resistance increases,our current trace follows a greater curve.

If you look close enough at the current,you will see that it first rises right along side the voltage,when the V is placed across the coil. I (and Mags) suspect this to be because of the parasitic capacitance of a real coil.
This being the case,then at T=0,the CEMF is not equal to the EMF, because if it was,then there would be no current flow at T=0.

At vox T=0, a voltage is placed across the inductor.
At the very same time,a current rises to a certain value,where this value will depend on the value of winding capacitance-and so dose the time period for this brief current flow.
The current will fall to 0, once the  capacitance has been charged.
Shortly after that,the current will rise ,and track it's  exponential curve path.

That is  what i have found so far in my tests.


Brad

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1535 on: July 04, 2016, 02:32:27 PM »
As i said, the CEMF cannot be equal to the EMF like it is with the ideal coil.
And as I said, yes it is equal with a real coil too, at t=0.

Quote
What i ment by current flow not being limited,was to that like the ideal coil,where the current is !apparently! limited to 800mA /second. As the winding resistance increases,our current trace follows a greater curve.
BOTH the ideal and real coils will be restricted to 0.8A/s maximum rate of current rise if they are 5H inductors, and free of parasitic capacitance. It is interesting that you refer to the ideal coil as being limited, when in fact the real coil is more limited because it hits a maximum current and its rate of rise decreases over time, whereas the ideal coil does not.

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1536 on: July 04, 2016, 03:05:40 PM »
Here is the real coil (R=1 Ohm) voltage tradeoff traces.

At t=0 ALL the voltage is across the inductance, and 0V across the resistor. That is, at t=0, cemf=emf. And yet, current flows.

After 30s or so the inductance ends up with 0V, and the resistance 4V across them; they have traded places.

partzman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1537 on: July 04, 2016, 03:55:23 PM »
But then, perhaps not...

Partzman,

There was no "math fudge" needed, everything worked perfectly just as it was.

As for your new model that apparently requires 3 separate types of EMF, you've completely lost me...

Your notation "D", in particular, is most confusing.

PW

This model was an attempt to make sense of the Emf/Cemf feed back loop and D) represents said attempt. Do not be confused by your thought that I don't understand what you are saying because I understand completely, I just don't agree! I knew that my new model was not correct when I created the two Emf sources.

So, in another approach to resolve the matter, I propose we attempt to simulate the inductor that is, not use the internal inductor model(s) in any given simulator, but break it down into functional components as Webby suggests. 

LtSpice is my preference and it's toolbox includes arbitrary behavioral voltage and current sources plus voltage dependent current sources , current dependent voltage sources, etc, so all we need to do is basically establish the model and the math.

I see no reason why this should not be doable and it would be a great teaching tool.

I have attached a schematic that shows the general circuit we wish to simulate and what I believe to be your equivalent model, but I would like you to confirm or indicate any changes that should be made so we can proceed. I am still working on my own equivalent model and will post it as soon as it is complete enough for criticism.

pm

 

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1538 on: July 04, 2016, 04:40:08 PM »
Here is the real coil (R=1 Ohm) voltage tradeoff traces.

At t=0 ALL the voltage is across the inductance, and 0V across the resistor. That is, at t=0, cemf=emf. And yet, current flows.

After 30s or so the inductance ends up with 0V, and the resistance 4V across them; they have traded places.

Either your sim dose not represent an accurate description of what happens at T=0,or you are not looking closely enough.

At T=0,the current will rise with the voltage until such time as the capacitance of the windings has been charged. depending on capacitance value,the current will !after a short time! return to a 0 value,and then begin it's rise over time.

At T=0,the CEMF dose not equal the EMF,as at T=0, the current tracks vertical with the voltage,and then drops back to a 0 value. The time span is very narrow,but it is at and after T=0.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1539 on: July 04, 2016, 04:44:37 PM »
This model was an attempt to make sense of the Emf/Cemf feed back loop and D) represents said attempt. Do not be confused by your thought that I don't understand what you are saying because I understand completely, I just don't agree! I knew that my new model was not correct when I created the two Emf sources.

So, in another approach to resolve the matter, I propose we attempt to simulate the inductor that is, not use the internal inductor model(s) in any given simulator, but break it down into functional components as Webby suggests. 

LtSpice is my preference and it's toolbox includes arbitrary behavioral voltage and current sources plus voltage dependent current sources , current dependent voltage sources, etc, so all we need to do is basically establish the model and the math.

I see no reason why this should not be doable and it would be a great teaching tool.

I have attached a schematic that shows the general circuit we wish to simulate and what I believe to be your equivalent model, but I would like you to confirm or indicate any changes that should be made so we can proceed. I am still working on my own equivalent model and will post it as soon as it is complete enough for criticism.

pm

Pm

Do you have a scope,or access to one?


Brad

picowatt

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1540 on: July 04, 2016, 04:50:14 PM »
This model was an attempt to make sense of the Emf/Cemf feed back loop and D) represents said attempt. Do not be confused by your thought that I don't understand what you are saying because I understand completely, I just don't agree! I knew that my new model was not correct when I created the two Emf sources.

So, in another approach to resolve the matter, I propose we attempt to simulate the inductor that is, not use the internal inductor model(s) in any given simulator, but break it down into functional components as Webby suggests. 

LtSpice is my preference and it's toolbox includes arbitrary behavioral voltage and current sources plus voltage dependent current sources , current dependent voltage sources, etc, so all we need to do is basically establish the model and the math.

I see no reason why this should not be doable and it would be a great teaching tool.

I have attached a schematic that shows the general circuit we wish to simulate and what I believe to be your equivalent model, but I would like you to confirm or indicate any changes that should be made so we can proceed. I am still working on my own equivalent model and will post it as soon as it is complete enough for criticism.

pm

Partzman,

Under the "PW Model", the notation should read Cemf=L*di/dt and that is what you would have to simulate.

For a 5H inductor, you will have to sense the current flowing thru the circuit and continuously adjust the CEMF voltage source so that the rate of change (di) is maintained at .8A/s.   

In other words, you will have to simulate a rate of change dependent negative feedback loop.

I am not sure how you would go about detecting di, but once you have a way to do so, something like "if di<.8A/s decrease CEMF" and "if di>.8A/s increase CEMF" comes to mind. 

Perhaps .99 could offer some suggestions regarding this...

PW

ADDED:

Just thinking out loud...

If you can program an arbitrary current source so that it rises at a rate of .8A/s, it could be used as a reference current, Iref.  The applied EMF and Iref would be started simultaneously.  The current flowing thru the model would be detected, hereinafter, Idet.  You could then use the difference between Iref and Idet to generate an error signal to control the value of the CEMF Vsource using a comparator or the like.  In the real world of negative feedback, damping would also need to be dealt with... 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 07:20:51 PM by picowatt »

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1541 on: July 04, 2016, 04:55:26 PM »
Either your sim dose not represent an accurate description of what happens at T=0,or you are not looking closely enough.

At T=0,the current will rise with the voltage until such time as the capacitance of the windings has been charged. depending on capacitance value,the current will !after a short time! return to a 0 value,and then begin it's rise over time.

At T=0,the CEMF dose not equal the EMF,as at T=0, the current tracks vertical with the voltage,and then drops back to a 0 value. The time span is very narrow,but it is at and after T=0.


Brad
No, the sim is indicating the results it should be. I did clearly specify that these results are for an inductor that is free from parasitic capacitance. I guess you missed that.

minnie

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1542 on: July 04, 2016, 05:12:35 PM »



   I've got a little question, those of you who are experts will probably be able to
 give an answer.
    I've found from experience,whatever you're doing, if the formula you're using
 isn't suitable your job goes wrong.
   Question "Do people who design circuits use the accepted laws and do they
 work out right?"
   Obviously unidealness of components has to be accounted for.
        Thank you John.

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1543 on: July 04, 2016, 05:59:15 PM »
Partzman,

Under the "PW Model", the notation should read Cemf=L*di/dt and that is what you would have to simulate.

For a 5H inductor, you will have to sense the current flowing thru the circuit and continuously adjust the CEMF voltage source so that the rate of change (di) is maintained at .8A/s.   

In other words, you will have to simulate a rate of change dependent negative feedback loop.

I am not sure how you would go about detecting di, but once you have a way to do so, something like "if di<.8A/s decrease CEMF" and "if di>.8A/s increase CEMF" comes to mind. 

Perhaps .99 could offer some suggestions regarding this...

PW
I was thinking of suggesting/doing this yesterday, but changed my mind. I've been down this road before and the work effort is not worth it. It will only be met with skepticism and will be readily dismissed as invalid.

picowatt

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #1544 on: July 04, 2016, 06:19:34 PM »
I was thinking of suggesting/doing this yesterday, but changed my mind. I've been down this road before and the work effort is not worth it. It will only be met with skepticism and will be readily dismissed as invalid.

.99,

I added the following to my post you referenced:

Quote
Just thinking out loud...

If you can program an arbitrary current source so that it rises at a rate of .8A/s, it could be used as a reference current, Iref.  The applied EMF and Iref would be started simultaneously.  The current flowing thru the model would be detected, hereinafter, Idet.  You could then use the difference between Iref and Idet to generate an error signal to control the value of the CEMF Vsource using a comparator or the like.  In the real world of negative feedback, damping would also need to be dealt with... 

If Partzman wants to attempt this, do you have any better or simpler suggestions as to how he might to go about it?

PW