You are talking crap again to avoid the frying pan.

And your unfounded dribble is becoming boring.

Go and look up--to be in resonance with something-then come back and try a re-dribble.


Brad

We are specifically discussing the scientific and engineering definition for resonance.

With the tune pipe can you identify the two complimentary forms of energy?
With the tune pipe can you identify the oscillation method for the alleged two forms of energy?

I don't think you can, and without that all you are left with is "resonance" in this case being "engine shop talk slang."  We are not talking about slang here.

Forget it MH--as i said,you are past the learning stage of life.
The last link clearly explained it-picture by picture-word for word.
If you cannot relate that to the scientific definition  of resonance,then you never will.

I have no more time to waste on you,so you enjoy your small closed in world.


Brad

Loner:

Here is the context:  On another thread some people said that they were going to make a "resonant Joule Thief" and we even had some Big Fish stories about the supposed miraculous properties of a resonant Joule Thief.  I said, "Hold on, a Joule Thief is not even a device based on resonance at all, it is a pulse circuit built around L/R-type time constants.  By definition a Joule Thief is not supposed to resonate and will not resonate."

That caused a ruckus and then we explored what resonance really means in terms of electronics and in terms of physical systems.  The context is that this was always about the scientific and engineering definition of resonance.  I asked two simple questions about a resonating wine glass that nobody in the "resonant Joule Thief" group could answer.

A recurring theme was that an ICE was a machine that took advantage of resonance to get higher performance.  That was indeed true for certain aspects.  And then what finally came out in the end is that what's going on in the expansion chamber/tune pipe is not resonance at all.  It turned out that it was just optimized synchronous operation of the expansion chamber-cylinder system at a certain RPM.  That's all fine and dandy but it is not resonance.

The reason it went that far is that "resonance" is a very charged term, it's a very abused term, and it is a term that is used to manipulate unsuspecting people or wanna-believers all the time.  I think it's safe to say that every single day that someone new makes a fake pitch using the magic word "resonance" to try to con money out of people.

So the goal was to get everyone on the same page with respect to what the scientific and engineering term "resonance" really is, what it means, and how it is actually defined.

That goal met with partial success, and I think it's safe to say many lurkers learned a lot about it and it shook off a lot of preconceptions.  I am hoping that the next time somebody makes a resonance pitch, that somebody will say, "What specifically do you mean by 'resonance' in your system, please define it."  For sure, that will make some resonance pitch artists choke because they won't be able to define it, they are just using it as a meaningless buzz word.

So I hope that gives you some understanding of the context in this whole conversation.  Delay lines are used all the time in electronic circuits, and you can buy delay line chips.  Case in point:  Delay line chips are advertised as delay lines, not as magic devices that will make your circuit resonate.

MileHigh

Yes Miles taught the kiddies plenty ...
Quote
No, an ICE doesn't resonate in any way, shape or form whatsoever.
end quote

we learned right here that Miles Pulls out all the stops when it comes to winning, even if it means he manufactures - facts-
from thin air.

Aside from the Simplest of ICE's the WW2 Buzz bomb [ICE In Complete cavity resonance]

it would also seem that resonance in an ICE is showing that the impossible [laws of thermodynamics ] is indeed possible.
a 50CC  N.A. 2 stroke should not be doing what it shows on the Dyno ,and resonance is soooo much a part of what is happening there.

8 HP per cubic inch displacement.
that's 400 HP per liter ,[ not a 4sec Blown monster on Nitro] ,runs and runs and runs.

breaking the rules.....

with resonance.

and yes MH I know your goal is to quote

"put an end to this resonance nonsense  once and for all"
end quote

fact is things come apart under resonant conditions, NMR.. NAR ...LENR....

The -TUNE- of resonance ..only the beginning MH ...Not the End.

thanks for the lesson !

No point in flogging a dead horse Chet,MH has his own definition of resonance.

To quote the scientific meaning of resonance
Quote: Resonance is the forced motion in tune with the natural oscillation frequency of a system, which is called the resonant frequency. Resonance is created when  pushing the system in the right direction that increases its amplitude.

MH cannot understand that the expansion chamber has a resonant frequency,which is the frequency of the gas charge moving back and forth within that expansion chamber.
He also dose not understand,that in order for this resonant frequency to be reached,the engine RPM has to be correct,nor dose he understand that the driving force behind it all,is the the expanding gases within the cylinder from the ignition of the fuel/air mix.

Now he is trying to !!some how!! infer that it is just some sort of delay line--which it is nothing of a sort.
Delay line-->a device producing a specific desired delay in the transmission of a signal.
There is no such delay rubbish in the two stroke expansion chamber. Fresh gas mix is drawn out of the cylinder,into the expansion chamber,and then it is returned back into the expansion chamber. This is an oscillating action,it is not a delay at all. This oscillating action has a specific frequency,and maximum amplitude of pressure inside the cylinder can only take place when the engine RPMs match the resonant frequency of that expansion chamber. If the engines RPM(frequency of oscillation of the piston)do not match the resonant frequency of the expansion chamber,then maximum amplitude of pressure in the combustion chamber will not be reached.
When the pistons oscillation frequency matches the natural resonant frequency of the expansion chamber,then maximum amplitude in pressure is reached in the combustion chamber-->the supercharging effect,and maximum power is developed by the engine.

MH just cannot put two and two together,and see that the piston is an oscillating object,that must oscillate at the same frequency as the natural resonant frequency of the expansion chamber,in order for maximum amplitude to be reached.
The system as a whole ,fits the very definition of a resonant system,where a driving force(the exploding gas mix) is the force that creates both the oscillation of the piston,and the oscillating gas charge within the expansion chamber. A small amount of energy is dissipated out through the expansion chamber,but most remains within the system,and is delivered to a load. The very same is true with an LC tank circuit,where some of the energy is dissipated as heat,but the bulk of the energy remains in the system,and may be delivered to a load.

There are some Chet,that can understand how to use resonance to our advantage,while there are others that will be stuck hitting a tuning fork with a hammer,and watching the world go by as they listen to there tuning fork oscillating at it's natural frequency.


Brad

Now he is trying to !!some how!! infer that it is just some sort of delay line--which it is nothing of a sort.
Delay line-->a device producing a specific desired delay in the transmission of a signal.
There is no such delay rubbish in the two stroke expansion chamber. Fresh gas mix is drawn out of the cylinder,into the expansion chamber,and then it is returned back into the expansion chamber. This is an oscillating action,it is not a delay at all. This oscillating action has a specific frequency,and maximum amplitude of pressure inside the cylinder can only take place when the engine RPMs match the resonant frequency of that expansion chamber. If the engines RPM(frequency of oscillation of the piston)do not match the resonant frequency of the expansion chamber,then maximum amplitude of pressure in the combustion chamber will not be reached.
When the pistons oscillation frequency matches the natural resonant frequency of the expansion chamber,then maximum amplitude in pressure is reached in the combustion chamber-->the supercharging effect,and maximum power is developed by the engine.

Yes, it's a delay line, you can completely forget about the expansion chamber resonating in terms of the operation of the two-stroke engine.  It's simply a device that was designed to generate a reverse pressure wave with the right synchronous delay at a given RPM to push the fuel mixture back into the cylinder before firing.  Your own link said that.

But it's more fun and cooler and sexier sounding to say "resonance," not to mention that "resonance" was your initial pitch and we couldn't have you admitting that you were w.... because that would make your head explode.

MH
Its not about your interaction with Brad here so much as your wanting to "End"
Quote
 this nonsense resonance rhetoric at an OU forum which sees Resonance or tuning as a necessary component
worthy of investigation .

you position yourself an authority of all things resonant and By default assume that all who venture
into the study of resonance or resonant tuning .. as it may apply to OU  are lost ignorant or uneducated fools !

and this you gleefully do at an OU forum and hope to Teach your perspective to all.. and guide them
to the Light which shines from your unresonant  presence.

and yes the Pistol shrimp [I took the Bait] is a nice example of what can happen in a softer medium with a properly tuned resonant cavity and an impulse .

A Bug Knocking photons out of orbit should not be so readily dismissed with a Yawn.....

and cavity resonance and water cavitation  would definitely be an area worthy of
experiment ...

at an OU forum.







 

 author=MileHigh link=topic=16589.msg486217#msg486217 date=1465827168]
 

When you say "an ICE uses resonance to work better and produce more power" what do you think of first?  I am willing to bet you the average person thinks of a modern four-stroke fuel-injected four or six-cylinder gasoline engine used in any modern European, North American, or Japanese car.

I am not an expert but I would not be surprised if the following were true:

1.  There is no type of Helmholtz resonator to help put air into the cylinders before combustion
2.  There is no need for an "anti-resonance" resonant cavity in the cylinder head
3.  There is no expansion chamber on the exhaust gas outlet because it is a four-stroke engine and it has a stroke for expelling the exhaust gasses.

Being on a forum that researches OU,why would we be talking about generic !off the shelf! engines.

Weekly i fit extractors to !standard! motor vehicles,to increase  efficiency,power and performance.
Why have the motor do work to push out exhaust gases,when you can have extractors that suck it out. With one simple modification,we have removed the need for the engine to do work it dose not have to do.

You have such a negative attitude MH,and that helps no one.


Brad

Being on a forum that researches OU,why would we be talking about generic !off the shelf! engines.

I didn't have my Ouija board, it was at the shop.