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Author Topic: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)  (Read 359632 times)

verpies

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #315 on: December 09, 2015, 09:47:27 AM »
Quote from: Magluvin on December 09, 2015, 03:38:34 AM
If you use a lot of little electrolytic caps in parallel the esr is lowered considerably.  Plus, smaller caps have lower esr compared to larger ones, so the gain of a lower esr is even better than just the paralleling of larger caps.
You you can use various techniques to adapt to the peculiarities of electrolytic caps, but don't loose the site of the goal in pursuit of these techniques.
...and the goal is to transfer all of the energy from L1 to L2 as efficiently as possible.  This usually means as quickly as possible, too....so the current through D1 flows as little time as possible.

Note, that with a large C1, the time to transfer energy from L1 to C1 is large too, [ precisely t=π(L1*C1)½ ] and during that long time, the forward voltage drop of D1 can waste a lot of energy.
So, a larger C1 does not mean a more efficient operation ...and the electrolytic caps just lost their biggest advantage (large capacitance).

BTW: C1 must be able to tolerate voltages of at least V = iL1*(L1 / C1)½  , thus the smaller the C1, the larger voltage it must tolerate to hold the same energy.
This capacitor voltage also defines the blocking voltages of the switches S1 and S2 and reverse voltage of diode D1 and D3.  This is an issue with Schottky diodes which usually have low reverse blocking voltages.
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shylo

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #316 on: December 09, 2015, 11:34:53 AM »
Sorry guys I should clear things up, I'm using a mag rotor for generating the spikes , storing them in caps ,and the trying to dump them back into the generating coils to serve as motor coils.
I have 7 coils in place which gives the possibilty  of 56 storage caps, currently I only have 36 wired in (it's a nightmare) room for 20 more.
The problem is trying to dump the caps ,since I have zero electronic skills, I have been trying to design a mechanical switch.

Luc if this too far off topic I apologize and will understand if you delete.

Btw what does esr mean?
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tagor

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #317 on: December 09, 2015, 11:45:32 AM »
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shylo

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #318 on: December 09, 2015, 12:08:22 PM »
Thanks Tagor, I just measured the resistance of my 7 coils wired in series to be 334 ohms.
I tried to measure a cap but just got an error reading.
But as soon as the mag rotor moves the coil readings just bounce all over the place, so is this esr really that important?
artv
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verpies

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #319 on: December 09, 2015, 01:32:21 PM »
Quote from: shylo on December 09, 2015, 12:08:22 PM
I tried to measure a cap but just got an error reading.
It is not possible to measure ESR of a capacitor with an ohmmeter.
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verpies

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #320 on: December 09, 2015, 01:34:46 PM »
Quote from: shylo on December 09, 2015, 11:34:53 AM
I'm using a mag rotor for generating the spikes , storing them in caps ,and the trying to dump them back into the generating coils to serve as motor coils.
I have 7 coils in place which gives the possibility of 56 storage caps, ...
Please draw a schematic of your coils, caps, diodes and switches.
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #321 on: December 09, 2015, 03:54:14 PM »
Quote from: shylo on December 09, 2015, 11:34:53 AM

Luc if this too far off topic I apologize and will understand if you delete.


No, it's fine and relevant

Please continue sharing

Luc
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #322 on: December 09, 2015, 04:09:29 PM »
I don't think I posted Hob Nilre experiments which would be relevant to some of what we are doing.

Here are a few video demos he has done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIeRR6NjMPQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu_v7jMs-ms

and for those who are into technical papers, he has 5 of them here: https://sites.google.com/site/nilrehob/home/elementary-physics

Luc
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shylo

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #323 on: December 10, 2015, 02:09:17 AM »
Hi Verpies, I don't have any switches yet , I am just collecting inductive kickback in the caps.
This kickback is not the same as the spike that can be collected due to shorting a generating coil, motoring coils also create a spike,
Which would mean 168 caps to deal with,
I need a switch that can handle all the operations in a sequenced order, 1 cap or perhaps 3 or 6 , I don't know , what ever it takes to sustain rotation.
I have more charged caps than I know what to do with.
artv
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 04:07:06 AM by gotoluc »
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mihai.isteniuc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #324 on: December 10, 2015, 10:02:40 AM »
Hi to all,


Can this design be any good using magnetic cancellation and fly back recovery?


Mihai
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Jimboot

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #325 on: December 10, 2015, 10:21:08 AM »
Quote from: mihai.isteniuc on December 10, 2015, 10:02:40 AM
Hi to all,


Can this design be any good using magnetic cancellation and fly back recovery?


Mihai
I'll take a shot
Those ferromag core will flip polarity and so will be in full attraction mode.
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mihai.isteniuc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #326 on: December 10, 2015, 11:09:28 AM »
Hi Jim and ty for taking time to reply.


The way i see it it's like this: energize the left coil to cancel magnetic flux from permanent magnets from left. The central magnets then are attracted by ferromagnetic core from left and repelled by the magnetic flux on the right. Ergo the central magnets are moving to the left. The process is then repeated by the other half of the system, so central magnets are gonna move to the right, inducing some electromagnetic power in central coil. This is one way to look at it ( and TL494 is a good IC to make this type of oscillator). Of course we recover fly-back energy from left coil, put some energy from the power supply and energize then the right coil, recover again fly-back and repeat the process.


The other possible way is to connect the two coils in series. In this configuration with the left coil we do magnetic cancellation while the right one is doing magnetic amplification, then reverse polarity. Again recover the fly-back pulse.  (BTW the idea with magnetic cancellation/amplification of a magnetic field came from the www.gap-power.com).


The real problem is: it is possible to make it work with a very short pulse of energy? As Verpies said (and my tests confirm) the pulse must have an optimum time duration. After that duration depletes we have to disconnect the power supply and collect the fly-back. My tests shows then 8-10% pulse width can lead to more then 70% of energy recover from fly-back pulse. Question: is this low time duration pulse able to do any useful magnetic work in the system (except of course fly-back pulse)?




Independent question about a coil; we have the following energy's when we send pulsed power to a coil:


- input energy=A
- losses energy (all of them)=B
- fly-back energy=C
- magnetic energy (if we consider magnetic field doing some useful work)=D


What is the mathematical relation between this energy's? A=?


mihai


 
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conradelektro

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #327 on: December 10, 2015, 06:15:14 PM »
I tried to harvest the energy in a fly back spike by help of a transformer (see the attached circuit diagram).

There is no motor. The drive coil (if there were a motor) is switched with a IRF840 transistor and a function generator.


It takes less than 720 mW to drive the circuit (i.e. the drive coil) and one can harvest about 15 mW from the fly back spike of the drive coil (via a transformer).


This test shows, that there is very little energy in the fly back spike. May be one has to use a better technique (not a transformer) to get more energy out of the fly back spike.

The set up provided the best output at 270 Hz. The drive coil is driven with a 50% duty cycle. At less than 40% duty cycle the output starts to drop.

I had to use a rather small capacitor of 47 nF. With a bigger capacitor ( e.g. 1 µF or 10 µF) the output dropped.

Greetings, Conrad
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #328 on: December 10, 2015, 06:32:20 PM »
Quote from: conradelektro on December 10, 2015, 06:15:14 PM
It takes less than 720 mW to drive the circuit (i.e. the drive coil) and one can harvest about 15 mW from the fly back spike of the drive coil (via a transformer).

This test shows, that there is very little energy in the fly back spike. May be one has to use a better technique (not a transformer) to get more energy out of the fly back spike.

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad,

thanks for taking the time to post your results.

I would agree that the power of your flyback would be very little as your coils DC resistance is very high.

Please find a MOT or other transformer that the primary or secondary is below 1 ohm and redo your test and post the difference.

Looking forward to see 8) the difference in the results

Thanks for sharing

Luc
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conradelektro

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #329 on: December 10, 2015, 06:56:32 PM »
Quote from: gotoluc on December 10, 2015, 06:32:20 PM
Hi Conrad,

thanks for taking the time to post your results.

I would agree that the power of your flyback would be very little as your coils DC resistance is very high.

Please find a MOT or other transformer that the primary or secondary is below 1 ohm and redo your test and post the difference.

Looking forward to see 8) the difference in the results

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Hi Luc!

May be you have misunderstood my circuit.

The drive coil has 90 Ohm DC resistance (a 12 V relays coil). What you and some people call the "high voltage coil" to regain something from the fly back spike is in my circuit the primary of a transformer (this primary has a DC resistance of 3000 Ohm). I changed my circuit diagram to indicate the transformer with a box around it.

I use a transformer, because it allows to decouple the energy in the fly back spike. On the secondary of this transformer one has then some sort of strange alternating current (see scope shot at pos 3 in the circuit) which could be used for something else.

You try to use the magnetic force in the second coil (the so called high voltage coil) to make the motor stronger. I try to get "electricity" out of the fly back spikes (at the secondary of a transformer).

Of course I could use a drive coil with only about 1 Ohm DC resistance (instead of my drive coil with 90 Ohm DC resistance). And then a transformer with a primary of about 30 Ohm DC resistance for getting "electricity" out of the fly back spikes. The input power will be much higher and also the output power at the 10 Ohm resistor. But the result will be similar (only about 2% of the input power can be harvested from the fly back spikes). More input results in more output, but the relative gain (about 2%) will be about the same.

What one could try, is a better technique than a transformer to decouple the energy in the fly back spikes. May be it is easier to regain magnetic force (as you try) and not "electricity" (as I try).

Greetings, Conrad
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