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Author Topic: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)  (Read 357055 times)

tinman

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #240 on: December 03, 2015, 01:19:33 AM »
Quote from: shylo on December 03, 2015, 01:00:34 AM
Get rid of all steel

artv

Silicon steel/soft iron is the best material to use in low frequency applications. 
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gyulasun

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #241 on: December 03, 2015, 09:16:32 PM »
Quote from: tinman on December 03, 2015, 12:23:54 AM
...
If we have put in the same amount of energy in each case,but we capture less electrical energy out from the bucking coil's-where did that lost energy go?-it cant just disappear.  I also stated that two magnets in a bucking configuration triples the pull force of that of 1 magnet on a magnetic material that is close by. Is it conceivable that this lost inductive kickback energy from the bucking coils was transformed into mechanical energy by way of a larger/stronger magnetic field produced by the bucking coils?.
....


Hi Brad,

Unfortunately I forgot to consider in my answer yesterday that if  in the not bucking coils mode you asked, when the resulting inductance would be say indeed higher than in the bucking mode, then the coils AC impedance would also be higher, thus to insure the same input current, the input voltage should be increased and this would involve higher input energy.  So we need to consider this when we wish to compare the bucking coils with the not bucking coils performance and answer your question.

I do not think that transformer laminates you would use for the tests will become magnetized in time (unless very strong peak currents would be involved on the long run).

Gyula
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #242 on: December 03, 2015, 11:01:41 PM »
Hi everyone,

as promised here is v.2 of the Bucking Field Reluctance Motor. You may be surprised at what happened.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9TQ8AXglg

Luc
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Jimboot

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #243 on: December 03, 2015, 11:13:43 PM »
Quote from: gotoluc on December 03, 2015, 11:01:41 PM
Hi everyone,

as promised here is v.2 of the Bucking Field Reluctance Motor. You may be surprised at what happened.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9TQ8AXglg

Luc
Good link bait headline! I'll be watching tonight.
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tinman

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #244 on: December 03, 2015, 11:45:12 PM »
Here is the first part of the bucking field motor test bench build.
Sorry about the small product review lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj_Ecj2NZj0
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Jimboot

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #245 on: December 03, 2015, 11:54:46 PM »
looks like a have a playlist for tonight
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Magluvin

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #246 on: December 04, 2015, 12:42:22 AM »
Hey Luc

Nice setup.  Try something here....

Use a full wave bridge rectifier for the flyback.   At first it might seem odd to do because that would mean that the input to the coil would be transferred to the bemf cap.  But once charged the caps voltage is mostly higher than the input. Supposedly this is what Bedini did and that was the explanation I understood.

It may help ease up on all that oscillation after switch off also.  There may be an oscillation in the coils after shutoff that are messing with the transistor circuits.

But when you get it back together, try the bridge and see what happens.  It may help get more into the cap and possibly help kill off the oscillations.

Mags
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #247 on: December 04, 2015, 12:48:24 AM »
Quote from: tinman on December 03, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
Here is the first part of the bucking field motor test bench build.
Sorry about the small product review lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj_Ecj2NZj0

Great job mate!

Keeping the two inductors identical is important. Good to have isolated flyback coils also.

Believe it or not, I had the same idea to use two identical dc motors as bearings generators to supports for the rotor if I was to build v.3

I have not demonstrated the direction the I cores are in my v.2 build. It's 180 degrees from v.1
The I core have more then twice the attraction pull then from v.1

See attached drawing I made for you.

Luc
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verpies

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #248 on: December 04, 2015, 12:51:02 AM »
Quote from: shylo on December 03, 2015, 01:00:34 AM
Get rid of all steel
That would leave only air coils in the stator and a ferrite in the rotor.

Quote from: gyulasun on December 02, 2015, 10:38:52 PM
So the residual inductance as Luc measured was changing roughly between 1.2 mH and 2.4 mH as it moves in the gap between the ON and OFF moments. 
That's only 1:2 inductance ratio between these "ON and OFF moments".

With air coils, that  inductance ratio would be ~100x larger.
Indeed, that would be very good for efficiency.
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #249 on: December 04, 2015, 12:56:52 AM »
Quote from: Magluvin on December 04, 2015, 12:42:22 AM
Hey Luc

Nice setup.  Try something here....

Use a full wave bridge rectifier for the flyback.   At first it might seem odd to do because that would mean that the input to the coil would be transferred to the bemf cap.  But once charged the caps voltage is mostly higher than the input. Supposedly this is what Bedini did and that was the explanation I understood.

It may help ease up on all that oscillation after switch off also.  There may be an oscillation in the coils after shutoff that are messing with the transistor circuits.

But when you get it back together, try the bridge and see what happens.  It may help get more into the cap and possibly help kill off the oscillations.

Mags

Humm :-\ ... that is interesting. Too bad there's nothing left to test ;D

I'm not rebuilding this v.2,  it served its purpose of observing an even power input.

Thanks for sharing the idea.

Luc
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #250 on: December 04, 2015, 01:04:43 AM »
Quote from: verpies on December 04, 2015, 12:51:02 AM
That would leave only air coils in the stator and a ferrite in the rotor.
That's only 1:2 inductance ratio between these "ON and OFF moments".

With air coils, that  inductance ratio would be ~100x larger.
Indeed, that would be very good for efficiency.

Really ??? ... Bucking Air Coils would make this more efficient?

That I have a hard time visualizing

Please share an example

Thanks

Luc
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verpies

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #251 on: December 04, 2015, 01:06:14 AM »
Quote from: gotoluc on December 04, 2015, 01:04:43 AM
Really ??? ... Bucking Air Coils would make this more efficient?
More efficient means more recovered electric energy relative to the electric input energy. 
It does not mean that the motor would have a higher torque. In fact the torque would be quite smaller.

It's all about maximizing that inductance ratio.  If you have an inductance meter, notice how large this ratio becomes for an air coil. 
Just divide the inductance without the rotor nearby and with the rotor nearby.
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verpies

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #252 on: December 04, 2015, 01:11:06 AM »
Quote from: gotoluc on December 03, 2015, 11:01:41 PM
as promised here is v.2 of the Bucking Field Reluctance Motor. You may be surprised at what happened.
Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9TQ8AXglg
That MOSFET is oscillating because that HV inductive spike from the motor winding is turning it ON when it is supposed to turn off.   This effect is known as Miller Turn-on or Miller Oscillation and happens when the voltage on the drain is changing too quickly for the MOSFET to handle.

There are two ways to solve it:
1) The brute force method: Drive the gate of the MOSFET with a strong driver that can sink many amps of current from the gate, such as the UCC27511.
2) The elegant method: Empty the capacitor before each HV spike arrives from the motor winding.
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #253 on: December 04, 2015, 01:20:46 AM »
Quote from: verpies on December 04, 2015, 01:06:14 AM
More efficient means more recovered electric energy relative to the electric input energy. 
It does not mean that the motor would have a higher torque. In fact the torque would be quite smaller.

It's all about maximizing that inductance ratio.  If you have an inductance meter, notice how large this ratio becomes for an air coil. 
Just divide the inductance without the rotor nearby and with the rotor nearby.

I understand but I didn't know for sure that an Inductance boost during on time will make the flyback have more power. This is what Steorn Orbo was claiming but I never saw any proof to it. Is this what you're sawing?

Luc
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gotoluc

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Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)
« Reply #254 on: December 04, 2015, 01:24:42 AM »
Quote from: verpies on December 04, 2015, 01:11:06 AM
That MOSFET is oscillating because that HV inductive spike from the motor winding is turning it ON when it is supposed to turn off.   This effect is known as Miller Turn-on or Miller Oscillation and happens when the voltage on the drain is changing too quickly for the MOSFET to handle.

There are two ways to solve it:
1) The brute force method: Drive the gate of the MOSFET with a strong driver that can sink many amps of current from the gate, such as the UCC27511.
2) The elegant method: Empty the capacitor before each HV spike arrives from the motor winding.

I'll test "The elegant method" next time this issue comes up.

Good to know!   thanks for sharing

Luc
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