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Author Topic: Gravity magnetic lever wheel working in WM2D (could this work in reality!)  (Read 38138 times)

exnihiloest

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On the contrary, it does. The energy produced is more than the energy spent. SMOT violates the principle of conservation of energy and discontinuously produces energy from nothing.

If there had energy violation in a smot, a looped smot could easily be built. No looped smot, no proof of energy violation. I'm an experimenter with an engineer background, I tried myself but failed as others. And from those claiming OU in a smot when they have not looped one, I have even never seen any serious energy measurements, including the potential magnetic energy at the start and end positions.

I'm sorry for this philosophical digression but I think claims without facts put FE research into a religious domain, remove its credibility and are a terrible handicap for all of us involved in FE because they give too many bad tracks. OU in a smot, or Jesus walking on the water, are similar irrationnal claims until strong experimental proofs to be given. I'm a scientist not a bigot; smot is a possible OU device as anything else (may be Steorn will give us the solution). Scientific method must be applied to prove it is. We have not yet a strong evidence it is, and imho not even a little.
Let's keep enthusiasts but lucid too, it's just my point of view.  :-)

Fran?ois

Omnibus

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Not so. Building a looped SMOT is only an engineering problem. The fact that this engineering problem has not found a solution yet cannot serve as a proof that SMOT doesn?t produce excess energy and that it doesn?t violate the principle of conservation of energy.

Indeed, Take a look at http://omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif  (if the link doesn?t open try clicking on Go in the address line and then Reload). The energy the researcher spends to raise the ball from A to B is

Energy_spent = ?mgh1 +(Ma ? Mb).

The ball returns spontaneously along the B-C-A portion of the loop the enegy:

Energy_obtained = +mgh1 +Mb = +mgh1 + mgh2 + (KE1 +RE2 +L1)

Where KE1 is the kinetic energy of the ball at C, RE1 is the rotational energy at C and L1 are the other energy losses at C. At point B? (not shown in the figure) the ball loses the height h2 and, respectively, loses its entire gravitational potential energy +mgh2 which at B? is transformed into [KE2 + RE2 +L2 + Mb?] where Mb? is the magnetic potential energy at point B? where the ball loses the height h2 (respectively, where the ball lose its entire +mgh2). Lumping the above terms together we get:

Energy_obtained = +mgh1 + [KE + RE +L] + Mb?

Therefore,

Energy_obtained ? Energy_spent = +mgh1 + [KE + RE +L] + Mb? - |?mgh1 +(Ma ? Mb)| = [KE + RE +L] +Mb? +Ma ?Mb > 0

Which is in violation of the principe of conservation of energy. The excess energy [KE + RE +L] +Mb? +Ma ?Mb produced has no source and is energy from nothing.

exnihiloest

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Energy_obtained – Energy_spent = +mgh1 + [KE + RE +L] + Mb’ - |–mgh1 +(Ma – Mb)| = [KE + RE +L] +Mb’ +Ma –Mb > 0

Which is in violation of the principe of conservation of energy. The excess energy [KE + RE +L] +Mb’ +Ma –Mb produced has no source and is energy from nothing.

Thanks for the equations, Omnibus. Nevertheless Check Energy_obtained, there is a flaw, Ma should be present.

There is a much simpler calculus.

Imagine there is no magnet. For the ball to go from A to A under the action of a force, it doesn't depend on the path as it is closed. The energy spent is nul: E_spent = int(F.dL)=0 on a closed path (in fact there are the losses).

Thus we have only to account for the magnetic potential energy.
From A to B : Ma-Mb
from B to C : Mb-Mc
from C to A : Mc-Ma
thus the sum is also nul.

But as there are the losses, the ball will stop.

You can't use conventional physics equations to prove smot is OU because physics says work is neither provided nor needed to move between two equipotential points in static fields, a fortiori when the start point is also the end point.

If smot is OU then it defies the laws of physics or involves hidden phenomenon and this can be proved only by clear experiments such as a perpetual motion.


Omnibus

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Quote
Thanks for the equations, Omnibus. Nevertheless Check Energy_obtained, there is a flaw, Ma should be present.

No, that?s incorrect.

Quote
Thus we have only to account for the magnetic potential energy.
From A to B : Ma-Mb
from B to C : Mb-Mc

Corect. This is the spontaneously returned energy.

Quote
from C to A : Mc-Ma
thus the sum is also nul.

The sum will be null if you can explain who has supplied the above energy to bring the ball back to A? The ball cannot spontaneously rise from the minimum of its potential energy Mc to the maximum of its potential energy Ma. Even if you try to invoke elastic collision I?ll remind you that you yourself mentioned losses and the collision is not by any means ideally elastic:

Quote
But as there are the losses, the ball will stop.

Therefore, the energy +Ma needed to bring the ball back to its initial position is energy which doesn?t have a source, that is, it is energy from nothing.

Quote
You can't use conventional physics equations to prove smot is OU because physics says work is neither provided nor needed to move between two equipotential points in static fields, a fortiori when the start point is also the end point. If smot is OU then it defies the laws of physics or involves hidden phenomenon and this can be proved only by clear experiments such as a perpetual motion.

On the contrary, you can, as seen in my derivation. Yours is a common misconception regarding the equations of conventional physics. The common understanding of the law whose full name is ?law of conservation and transformation of energy? concerns usually its ?transformation? part, that is, when energy is available it can be transformed in other types of energy whose sum must be equivalent to the initial amount. This is what conventional physics bases all of its derivations on. Validity of this part of the law of conservation of energy is assumed in my derivation.

It is seen from my derivation, however, that when two conservative fields are properly overlaid the resulting field is non-conservative and energy can be produced from nothing.

Charlie_V

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Wow, its a full blown debate!!!!  Lets get the banjo music playing.... aah there we go.

Firstly, Jesus did walk on water, which is nothing related to a SMOT.  Jesus' water walk came after he had risen from the dead, he was no longer human but a spirit.  Spirits can do amazing things - I have seen them (being spirits, not Jesus haha) first hand and watched them manipulate objects.  There is definitely something beyond our life here on earth.... and if you don't believe that, you'll find out sooner or later. 

Secondly, SMOTs will not work, exnihiloest is right.  I will slightly agree with Omnibus, there is an increase in energy, during the ball's acceleration.  Unfortunately, everything that the ball gains is lost when it reaches the "sticky point" as they say.  The only way to get around the "sticky point" is to be able to turn the magnet off - which you can't.  That is the simplest answer, of course you can use the math to prove it too.  Basically, you place the ball at a higher potential.  The magnetic field accelerates it, but then takes back the energy it gave when the ball attempts to leave the field. 

I still do not understand why science calls magnetic fields "potential" energy.  It is stored energy, but NOT in the form of potential.  It is stored as kinetic.  Its the same thing as a quantum fly wheel.  In a circuit a magnetic field is ONLY seen when the charges are moving.  Moving energy is kinetic, not potential.  An electric field is potential, since the charge is static and not moving. 

To further my point, when kinetic energy is changed, what happens?  The energy is transitioned to potential (assuming it is not used) like what happens in the simple case of a pendulum.  This is also seen in circuits, when you change a magnet's field (usually by moving the magnet), an open circuit coil response by creating a potential difference between it's end points - just as a pendulum's kinetic energy is transitioned to potential when the ball reaches its maximum height. 

This led me to a very interesting paradox.  If a permanent magnet is the equivalent of a fly wheel, then why when you alter its field does it not loose flux?  In simplified terms, when you generate electricity in a coil, using a magnet, why doesn't the flux of the magnet reduce?  If you took a spinning fly wheel with ultra low friction bearings and had a clutch system to engage it to a load, the stored energy would decrease when the load was attached.  This does not happen in the electrical analogy.   

Low-Q

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A SMOT works just like a ball on a track with hills. The hills represent the magnetic forces. Uphill is repulsion, and downhill is attraction. However there is only two hills on a SMOT, first a downhill, and then an uphill, where the first hill is higher than the next, hence the ball will pass the this next hill without stopping. Why a single SMOT works is because the ball is released from a higher level than the next level. If we make a closed loop, the ball will never have enough energy to pass the highest hill where it was released from in the first place. Therefor it will stop.

Try to figure out how to make a ball rolling downhill without the need to use energy to get to the top again to continue the roll. It is this hard to make a working SMOT. A ball must have downhill to move. To make the ball to move infinitely, the downhill must also be infinite. How do you solve that? Finsruds art Perpetuum Mobile (Watch the video here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en) is a ball that rolls on an aluminum track which is controlled by heavy pendulums. The three pendulums will force the track to vacillate in a way that the ball is always running downhill. The ball is activating the pendulums by use of little energy every times it pass an activator. The energy used is as much it takes to move the pendulums continuously - in order to force the track to vacillate. On the pendulums there is also attached a magnet which escapes in the right moment, just to pull on the steel ball and escape to make the ball to pass the sticky point. At each revolution there is a "click". This sound, many believes is the energy that keeps the ball to run. So I'm not quite sure if this is a real perpetuum mobile. Anyway, the sum of all this makes the ball to roll on the track "forever".

Vidar

Omnibus

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I?m also still not sure whether or not Finsrud?s machine is producing excess energy continuously. Some simple additional experiments have to be carried out to exclude the possibility that it?s just a very efficient re-distributor of initially input energy which is trivial.

It is beyond doubt, however, that SMOT produces excess energy discontinuously, that is, SMOT produces discontinuously energy from nothing. Whether or not there would be successful engineering efforts to harness this discontinuous production of energy from nothing to construct a self-sustaining device has nothing to do with the reality of the said excess energy. Again, its reality is proven definitively. That one is unable to construct a car in his garage is not a proof that cars that run on the roads cannot be made. Neither is a proof for whether or not a car can be made, the fact that in the year 1700 there were no internal combustion engines.

Low-Q

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It should be quite simple to make a SMOT with several devices on a row, or in a loop. Why haven't anyone made a working one yet if the solution to over unity is this close?
The answer is because there is suddenly unforeseen obstacles when one try to close the loop.

There is only one way to find this out: Trying myself :)

Vidar

Omnibus

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As I already said, constructing a self-sustaining SMOT is only a purely enegineering problem and has nothing to do with the undeniable fact that SMOT produces energy from nothing and thus violates the principle of conservation of energy. It's a common misconception that one (violation of the principle) cannot be proven without the other (self-sustaining SMOT). They ar unconnected.

hartiberlin

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Omnibus, I agree,
maybe it would be best to try to put an electromagnet into the
SMOT steel ball or instead of the steel ball, just use an iron core with
an electromagnet around it and then store the induced energy
in the accelerating part of the ramp in a capacitor and use this
energy then atthe sticking spot of the ramp
to kick this runner then out there with giving
it a reversed magnetic pulse from the capacitor back to the electromagnet.

So we have to make the "SMOT ball" more intelligent ! ;)

Did anybody just accelerated am electromagnet inside a SMOT
ramp and measured how much induction energy you can get this way
until it sticks at the end ?

exnihiloest

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...
I still do not understand why science calls magnetic fields "potential" energy.  It is stored energy, but NOT in the form of potential.  It is stored as kinetic. 
...   

Sorry to quote myself:
"The energy of magnets is just the energy in the magnetic field that you put when you magnetize the magnet. It is very weak (=0.5*B?/mu per unit volume).
What seems big is the "potential energy" due to the relative position of magnets or masses in their respective magnetic or gravity fields. "

The magnetic potential energy let the ball move from the start point of a smot.
When a ferromagnetic object is attracted by a permanent magnet, it acquires kinetic energy and this energy comes from the initial magnetic potential energy of the object. This transformation is reversible.
Magnets permits to transforms magnetic potential energy into mechanical energy and vice versa without change in their internal magnetization.

A ferromagnetic body at a distance from a magnet is as a mass at a distance from a planet: it possesses potential energy that let it to "fall" to the magnet as a mass to the ground.






Omnibus

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Quote
Sorry to quote myself:
"The energy of magnets is just the energy in the magnetic field that you put when you magnetize the magnet. It is very weak (=0.5*B?/mu per unit volume).
What seems big is the "potential energy" due to the relative position of magnets or masses in their respective magnetic or gravity fields. "

The magnetic potential energy let the ball move from the start point of a smot.
When a ferromagnetic object is attracted by a permanent magnet, it acquires kinetic energy and this energy comes from the initial magnetic potential energy of the object. This transformation is reversible.
Magnets permits to transforms magnetic potential energy into mechanical energy and vice versa without change in their internal magnetization.

A ferromagnetic body at a distance from a magnet is as a mass at a distance from a planet: it possesses potential energy that let it to "fall" to the magnet as a mass to the ground.


This is incorrect. The correct analysis of SMOT proves that it produces energy from nothing and violates the principle of conservation of energy.

Indeed, take a look at http://omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif  (if the link doesn?t open try clicking on Go in the address line and then Reload). The energy the researcher spends to raise the ball from A to B is

Energy_spent = ?mgh1 +(Ma ? Mb).

The ball returns spontaneously along the B-C-A portion of the loop the enegy:

Energy_obtained = +mgh1 +Mb = +mgh1 + mgh2 + (KE1 +RE2 +L1)

Where KE1 is the kinetic energy of the ball at C, RE1 is the rotational energy at C and L1 are the other energy losses at C. At point B? (not shown in the figure) the ball loses the height h2 and, respectively, loses its entire gravitational potential energy +mgh2 which at B? is transformed into [KE2 + RE2 +L2 + Mb?] where Mb? is the magnetic potential energy at point B? where the ball loses the height h2 (respectively, where the ball lose its entire +mgh2). Lumping the above terms together we get:

Energy_obtained = +mgh1 + [KE + RE +L] + Mb?

Therefore,

Energy_obtained ? Energy_spent = +mgh1 + [KE + RE +L] + Mb? - |?mgh1 +(Ma ? Mb)| = [KE + RE +L] +Mb? +Ma ?Mb > 0

Which is in violation of the principe of conservation of energy. The excess energy [KE + RE +L] +Mb? +Ma ?Mb produced has no source and is energy from nothing.

hartiberlin

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Omnibus,
the free fortunecity hosting is just "crap",
they have  IP tracking enabled, so you can?t link
directly to pictures hosted therefromoutside,
onlyif you go via their servers...

Better host something like this at
download sides as
www.megaupload.com
or other free picture services like flickr.com
or simular...

or just make a index.htm file there at fortunecity
that points to your GIF picture.

Thanks.

P.S: The energy comes probably from converting
the magnet spin precession or via thermal cooling
via magnetic cycling effect.

Greg Watson and Epitaxy, who got the SMOT to rotate a few
times said, that after a few revolutions the ball sticked
to the track, so the ball changed its own
magnetisation after a few looped cycle rounds...

So you see, we really need an "intelligent ball"
made from an electromagnet with an iron core
that can kick itsself out of the track after having collected
induction energy while being accelerated through the track...

But this SMOT topic should be moved to the SMOT area over here.
so let?s stay ontopic here. Thanks.

TheOne

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if you are looking just for image hosting use http://www.photobucket.com
its free and work really well

pese

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 also www.zabim.de  (com)
very usefull
with text !!
with messager !!

Pese