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Author Topic: Magnet motor theories  (Read 9271 times)

Offline Smudge

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Magnet motor theories
« on: April 12, 2014, 04:27:41 PM »
Here is some food for thought on magnet motors.  I personally witnessed the Yildiz motor at Delft University, and although it is possible it was a scam I do not believe so.  In any electically conductive permanent magnet it is known that the conduction electrons become spin polarised from interaction with the ion magnetic dipoles, hence the conduction electrons contribute to the magnetization.  If those conduction electrons are shifted to one side then the magnet gets slightly lopsided but without any physical sideways movement of the magnet.  Maybe this happens in magnet motors where induction by movement through the magnetic field of another magnet causes the effect.  The electron movement is likely to show as a surface effect where surface charge, being spin polarised, is also surface magnetization.  This is known as the Magneto-electric Effect which is being studied in nano-systems as a means for electic control of magnetization.  However IMO it is not confined to small systems and will occur in large systems also.  Whether the effect is significant remains to be seen.  The attached paper tells the story.  Enjoy!

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Magnet motor theories
« on: April 12, 2014, 04:27:41 PM »

Offline raburgeson

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 07:13:46 AM »
The geometry and placement control of the magnets is probably critical. Just like a gravity wheel there has to be an balance of power to keep the device running. More magnets must be pushing and pulling than those working against it. This probably can be done. It has not been done by anyone that was put on the shelf.

Offline Smudge

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 10:32:45 AM »
The geometry and placement control of the magnets is probably critical. Just like a gravity wheel there has to be an balance of power to keep the device running. More magnets must be pushing and pulling than those working against it. This probably can be done. It has not been done by anyone that was put on the shelf.

Magnets pulling and pushing is a naive approach to what actually goes on within magnets.  It is easily shown that it is possible to extract energy from the electron spins inside magnets, but the problem is that energy generally gets clawed back over a full cycle.  Because there is this lack of overall energy gain the energy flows to and fro are ignored and not even mentioned in electromagnetic texts and certainly not taught in college.  But that energy flow is real, and it flows to and from the quantum domain that is responsible for keeping electrons spinning.

However it may be possible to break that claw-back reciprocity if magnetization can be controlled by means other than the supply of a magnetic field.  The magneto-electic effect is one such means whereby magnetization is controlled by an electric field, and this is being actively explored for obtaining magnetic storage at lower power cost than conventional means that use magnetic fields to do the switching.  That possibility of going round a square BH loop and not consuming the energy contained within that loop is IMO a tacit acceptance of OU by the scientific establishment.  So I think it possible that the magnetization shifting that comes from the E=vXB motional induction breaks the reciprocity of energy flow to and from the quantum domain.

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 10:32:45 AM »
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 12:50:28 AM »
Quote
However it may be possible to break that claw-back reciprocity if magnetization can be controlled by means other than the supply of a magnetic field.  The magneto-electic effect is one such means whereby magnetization is controlled by an electric field, and this is being actively explored for obtaining magnetic storage at lower power cost than conventional means that use magnetic fields to do the switching.  That possibility of going round a square BH loop and not  consuming the energy contained within that loop is IMO a tacit acceptance of OU by the scientific establishment.  So I think it possible that the magnetization shifting that comes from the E=vXB motional induction breaks the reciprocity of energy flow to and from the quantum domain.
Smudge, do you think multiferroics such as Iron Oxide or Copper oxide might have this kind of capacity for "clawing back" some of the to-and fro movement of magnetic fields?  Here's an interesting presentation among the growing number on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KfySbeVO4M
I can't help but wonder if the rusted iron wires in Stubblefield's earth batteries was accomplishing this task vis a vis the earth's own magnetic field.
Bob

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2014, 04:54:48 AM »

http://www.vasantcorporation.com/

George Bugh sent me one of his books.  A lot of thought went into his research.


TS

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2014, 04:54:48 AM »
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Offline Smudge

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2014, 09:47:09 AM »
Smudge, do you think multiferroics such as Iron Oxide or Copper oxide might have this kind of capacity for "clawing back" some of the to-and fro movement of magnetic fields?  Here's an interesting presentation among the growing number on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KfySbeVO4M
I can't help but wonder if the rusted iron wires in Stubblefield's earth batteries was accomplishing this task vis a vis the earth's own magnetic field.
Bob

Bob,

I do indeed think that multiferroics have that capacity.  In particular the ability for an electic field to change the magnetic polarization, so maybe not the actual compound being studied in that video where a magnetic field changes the electric polarization.  It is possible to obtain multiferroic effects using layers of different materials where the effects occur on the surface.  If you google "magnetoelectric effect" you should find some references where this effect is being investigated as a means for electric field control of magnetization with the aim of magnetic storage of digital data at lower power cost than at present.  The individual layers of material are not necessarily multiferroic, thus you can have a ferromagnetic layer in contact with a ferroelectic layer.  Of course the research is looking at tiny magnetic structures where the layers are very thin, but the basic surface phenomenon can apply to larger bulk materials.  As I said before, if you can go round a BH loop without inputting the energy related to the area of that loop, that is a tacit assumption of OU.

You can extract energy from a ferromagnet very easily in the form of magnetic-field energy.  If the ferromagnet is supplying field B1 you simply supply another field B2 from a coil wound around the magnet and the resulting field is B1+B2.  The field energy is proportional to B2 so you end up with B12+B22+2B1B2.  The first term is the initial energy supplied by the magnet, the second term is the energy supplied by the coil and the third term is the anomalous energy supplied by the electron spins in the magnet.  If you don't believe this just replace the magnet with its coil equivalent and analyse it.  Aspden thought he could capture some of this anomalous energy with his reluctance motor, but his analysis wasn't complete, he ignored the energy associated with the field within the magnet.  The simple reluctance motor doesn't work, any energy gained is clawed back when you return to starting conditions at the end of each cycle.

But if you can switch a ferromagnet on and off, or better still reverse its magnetization, not via applied magnetic fields but via electric fields, the claw back problem might disappear.  That is certainly worth exploring.

Offline Smudge

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2014, 10:13:28 AM »
http://www.vasantcorporation.com/

George Bugh sent me one of his books.  A lot of thought went into his research.


TS

TS,

I too have studied inertia, in particular as applied to gyroscopes.  I saw Laithwaites Royal Society lecture on TV, attended another of his lectures in person and corresponded with him.  I even attempted to build a thrust motor using gyroscopic principles.  And being an electromagnetic engineer I studied inertia and gravity from that background.  I have similar views to George Bugh and firmly believe that gravity, inertia and electromagnetism are all linked by a common cause.  Perhaps one day I will publish my views.  The common theme is that so called empty space is not empty at all but permeated by particles having zero rest mass but also having spin, not unlike neutrinos.  These travel through our space at light velocity c and, although being massless, they do exhibit momentum p and energy p*c.  Matter particles absorb and emit these space particles, hence absorb and lose momentum.  The time delay between absorption and emission accounts for mass inertia.  The direction in which the emission takes place is determined by the spin of the absorbed particle, hence this can be offset from the arrival direction and this accounts for electromagnetic effects.  I see all thermal motion and all sub-atomic motion such as orbital, precession and perhaps even spin of matter as being driven by these space particle interactions.  And that in my mind is an enormous source of energy if only we could discover how to tap into it.

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2014, 10:13:28 AM »
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Offline Smudge

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2014, 12:28:28 PM »
I can't help but wonder if the rusted iron wires in Stubblefield's earth batteries was accomplishing this task vis a vis the earth's own magnetic field.
Bob

Bob,

Just looked at the Stubblefield situation.  I don't think his earth battery used the earth's magnetic field nor did it use "magnetic current" as some people believe.  I think the answer may be more simple than that.  Basically the thing is just a battery using Fe and Cu as electrodes and (earth contaminated) water as the electrolyte.  But the electrodes have a special geometry in that they are spirally wound coils.  Now if I am right the performance of the battery would improve if the electrons flowing from one electrode to the other, instead of arriving normal to the surface of the electrode, actually arrived at an angle, and that angle is in a direction to support the current flow along the wire.  With adjacent Fe and Cu wires wound in a solenoidal bifilar manner, the presence of a magnetic field that is parallel to the axis of the solenoid will cause the electron trajectories across the gaps to bend so as to create that angle of approach (this is classical cyclotron curvature).  That magnetic field is created by the load current flowing within the electrode coils and also within the secondary coil, if the polarity of the connections is appropriately arranged.  The Fe core enhances that magnetic field for a given load current (hence the reason Subblefield used a long solenoid).   This magnetic enhancement creates positive feedback and increases the activity of the electrolytic cell the more you load it.  That theory fits well with the reported power being much greater than would be expected from electrolytic action alone.  And if I am right it opens the door to enormous improvements in cell technology by the use of spiral electrodes and permanent magnets.

Offline Ghazanfar_Ali

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 06:26:10 PM »

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 06:26:10 PM »
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Magnet motor theories
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2014, 01:48:15 AM »
Smudge,
Thanks very much for taking the time to reply to my queries. I've been travelling today for work, but will take some time to digest them over the weekend, and respond.
Bob

 

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