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Author Topic: Need your input on this motor generator  (Read 7207 times)

magnetman12003

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Need your input on this motor generator
« on: March 26, 2014, 12:53:11 AM »
Hi All,

I need your input on the developed motor generator video I posted on the You Tube.
A hard wire negative ground wire connects both the input and output of this setup and as
I am finding out strange things are happening.  Some power source unknown to me is assisting the
setup to power lamps that need larger power to operate normally.

Replies need my approval before posting on You Tube to keep out trash talk.

Link is below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri32jT5UQ5c

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dieter

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2014, 04:55:09 AM »
youtube became a frustrating sucker, from 5 vids i click , 3 simply refuse to play ("this video is not available"), one crashes the browser and one, with a lot of luck , plays. And then the Ads... crash the browser almost every time. youtube sucks, google destroyed it.


so, sorry couldn't watch it.
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MileHigh

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2014, 05:46:55 AM »
The "unknown power source" is the fact that almost certainly your setup is spontaneously oscillating, where the spontaneous oscillation was initiated by the spinning rotor magnet.  So the power source is the power supply.

Your anecdotal observations of the brightness of the LED bulbs is just that; anecdotal.  You would have to make a serious measurement with a digital storage oscilloscope with built-in math functions to truly know how much power is going into each LED light bulb.  Since you don't have that equipment, you can't conclude anything from your clip.
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TinselKoala

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2014, 06:17:27 AM »
Quote from: dieter on March 26, 2014, 04:55:09 AM
youtube became a frustrating sucker, from 5 vids i click , 3 simply refuse to play ("this video is not available"), one crashes the browser and one, with a lot of luck , plays. And then the Ads... crash the browser almost every time. youtube sucks, google destroyed it.


so, sorry couldn't watch it.
The problem is entirely on your end, it seems.
I agree that doodle has hurt YouTube gravely, but it does still work. If you are having troubles like this often, I suggest you start using Linux for your OS, Firefox for your browser, and browser add-ons like FlashBlock and NoScript.
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TinselKoala

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2014, 06:23:50 AM »
Quote from: MileHigh on March 26, 2014, 05:46:55 AM
The "unknown power source" is the fact that almost certainly your setup is spontaneously oscillating, where the spontaneous oscillation was initiated by the spinning rotor magnet.  So the power source is the power supply.

Your anecdotal observations of the brightness of the LED bulbs is just that; anecdotal.  You would have to make a serious measurement with a digital storage oscilloscope with built-in math functions to truly know how much power is going into each LED light bulb.  Since you don't have that equipment, you can't conclude anything from your clip.

As I have been showing, and as Poynt99 has proven, and as Steve Weir has also confirmed, ordinary modern DMMs do a remarkably good job at reading averages of complex oscillating signals. I am consistently getting less than 5 percent error compared to the digital oscilloscope's reading. Twenty dollars spent on a couple of cheap Harbor Freight DMMs can answer a lot of questions. For light intensity readings, a simple lightmeter with great accuracy can be constructed for under 40 dollars using an Arduino and the TSL235A light intensity-to-frequency sensor chip.

One of a continuing series of DMM checks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ST0xgf3xsw

The Arduino light intensity meter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kzf7S-pOEM

Unfortunately I calibrated this meter in actual units of irradiance, power per square cm. I suppose I could calibrate it in half-F-stops too ........   ;D ;D
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MileHigh

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2014, 06:53:21 AM »
Yes indeed but note how unusual this setup is.  You actually see it quite often on the forums.  You have the big coil discharging a train of current pulses into a circuit inside the LED light bulb that is expecting to see a 120 VAC sine wave.  The current pulses whack their way through the circuit inside the LED light bulb anyways and manage to light the LEDs.  The circuit is already trying to convert high-voltage AC into some kind of DC or pulsed DC for the LEDs and it manages to "partially digest" the current pulses which need very little prodding to produce high voltage.  It's a "super whackadoo kludge" that actually does a decent job of lighting up LED light bulbs all things considered.

How the circuit copes with the current pulses is unknown, but it could be investigated if someone wanted to go there.  One has to assume that the circuit looks like a very nonlinear load hence the need for the DSO.

A reasonable assumption is that the circuit inside the LED bulb is initially not "friendly" towards the current pulses and looks like a high impedance.  So the voltage shoots up and gets up to levels that are quasi "120 VAC look-alike" and the circuit decides it can digest these high voltage current pulses.  Once the voltage hits some unknown threshhold level something kicks in and you get a lit LED light bulb.  It kind of a "bananas in the transmission" kind of deal.
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TinselKoala

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2014, 10:10:59 AM »
Sure, I see all that, but I still maintain that you can get good reasonable average power measurements using two DMMs if they are used properly. And you could probably even use a photographer's light meter calibrated in f-stops to get a reasonable, if coarse, measure of luminance or irradiance from the lightbulbs, if you were rigorous about it and did some calibrations against standards.  It's a myth that you need DSOs with fancy math to do this kind of work! They are nice, like having a riding lawnmower to use instead of a push-reel type. But they don't necessarily do a different or better job of mowing the lawn. What do you think people did before there were digital scopes, just wave their hands around? Was the Watt not invented before 1975? I'll bet the engineers that designed the first digital scopes didn't have digital scopes to use, but they did just fine. The Apollo program for example ... how many digital oscilloscopes were around in those days?
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MileHigh

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2014, 11:26:34 PM »
TK:

If you light up an LED with a periodic voltage waveform like a sawtooth, then you have to have a DSO to measure the power dissipation in the LED (or do it thermally).  I assume that you agree with me.

How did they do it before DSOs?  I am not sure but driving home tonight a way to do it occurred to me.  It would be a variation of your trick with weighing a piece of paper on an analytical balance.  Perhaps they photographed the waveforms and then created a set of cams for the voltage and the current.  Then they ran that through some kind of cam-based multiply-accumulate mechanical analog computer.

There is a great series of clips on YouTube showing the cam-based analog computer that is used to aim the main guns on a battleship or destroyer.  It dates from the early 1950s if I recall.

MileHigh
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TinselKoala

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2014, 05:48:44 AM »
@MH : I'm not so sure I do agree with you. Like I said, it all depends on how you use your meters. If you do it right, I think you will get the right answer. I've done what I show in the video below about a dozen times now with various waveforms and frequencies and I consistently get within 5 percent of the scope's measurement, and at higher currents and longer duty cycles, even less error than that. Just did one with an Ainslie waveform that gave 20 mA error out of 1.810 Amps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ST0xgf3xsw

Now you can't always multiply "average current" by "average voltage" and get the right answer in power. But if you can legitimately "assume" that the voltage is constant, while the current varies, then you can get the right answer by using Vconst x Iavg found in this way. I think. Maybe.
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MileHigh

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Re: Need your input on this motor generator
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 06:42:15 AM »
TK:

I forgot to mention the obvious about using tube circuits and a capacitor to make your multiplier-accumulator.  Ironically enough the transfer function in a diode can be used as the basis for making a multiplier.  Converting multiplication to adding logarithmic signals and all that stuff.

For your clip, I think I am on Poynt's side about a multimeter being more accurate than a DSO for an average current measurement.  The sampling of that big band of noise (actually oscillation waveform) may be throwing off the DSO average current measurement by a few percent but not the multimeter.  I think it's because the main waveform also causes the trigger so the sampling and the noise (oscillations) are not random relative to each other so there is the possibility of aliasing errors in the sampling.  Numerical analysis is heavy stuff.  lol  (Bits of sampling resolution also come into play.  I never liked 8 bits.)

The problem with a diode or LED of course is that the voltage is "clamped" to whatever the current is and it's not a straight line.

Now that would be a good op-amp project, making a triggerable multiply-accumulator with an adjustable event capture window.  That would give a vanilla analog oscilloscope the ability to measure the power being dissipated in an LED or whatever else you wanted.  I am sure all of the pieces to the puzzle are there in that nostalgic National Semiconductor op-amp application notes book.

MileHigh
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