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Author Topic: HHO heaters design questions  (Read 37507 times)

CompuTutor

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 06:12:11 AM »
Many have chimed in with relevant safety issues, I'm gald to see all those
like the extreme flame propagation speed of Hydrogen mixed with Oxygen,
(Technically, Hydrogen pressed into the transfer state is neither an explosion nor ignition,
it is a change-state cascade-failure from one state into another not currently understood !)
heck, an oxidizer and a fuel in a single path is almost ludicrous in application

Accident waiting to happen...



But the point of this thread is using it for heat.

modulating the output with a PWM (pulse-width modulator) metered supply module of some kind is a good starting point to experimenting with this concept, but more experienced people above have pointed good safety tips to, like detecting the lack of flame realtime.

But now I will make a connection that is useful,
use STONE !
(DON'T ask me which type, varies by region/supplier...test ALL...)


Remember, most sublimation issues aside concerning metals (never use metals !),
the only thing that can absorb such intense nuclear-level interactions of HHO,
is a high crystal content style of stone that will convert the release into Near-IR.
There are those here that think metal works ifflow is high, the matter de-evolves)

Yes, they will sublimate too IF overcome by value of exposure, ANY matter will.

Have you seen the YouBoob vid sublimating a diamond, heheh, nice...


Harvest the heat into an air flow exchanger,
or make the stone the heat exchanger into
a fluid of your heat's transport's choice.

What did you think those "Amish" heaters for free are
(that only charge you for the crafted wooden case only)
are really ?

The name of the game is to change the steady-state output of heat from the emission frequency it is native to,
to a more usable frequency of heat that WE (mere humans) can use bodily.

Taking a row of heat lamp bulbs,
and heating a flank of stone,
then running air through the path,
through the bulb sockets first (safety),
then past all the bulbs next to harvest,
then lastly past the stone's emission last,
converts previous emissions into usable heat !

sounds to simple, sorry, works, PROVEN...



Here's the rub, the "potential" to harvest heat from an HHO state conversion (flame) is sadly limited to a very tightly confined volumetric area, we all know this.

The area of conversion-event institutionalization
(the flame event horizon of incidence to be clear)
to flame event collapse is very limited in length.

I've seen 180-PSI + 120-PSI oxi-HY tips burn (BoobTube),
they stretched it to a touch over an inch effective usability,
even though it looked inches long in a CCD/CMOS sensor.



worse yet is that it relies on the actual matter involved in the conversion.

We can pass our hands through safely due to our composition,
but don't get a piece of Titanium involved in the conversion,
or your going to melt almost anything else around !

That is what makes the crystal structure of certain stone so special to this process,
I can't say if it is the lattice structure, or what else makes this work for this really,
but certain stone compositions almost seem to eat the thermals emitted during conversion
and then the simple matter is you have a very friggin hot stone now

just like we struggle to "pipe" the heat away from our CPU's fast enough,
you will struggle the be able to pump the heat away fast enough from stone.

My visual is stone with different depth bores from each end,
with matching flame burner/igniter tube assembalies each,
that is bored in from each side (end) to spread the surface heat.

As a resulte, a stones surface with IR spread and thermal input

Then a dual-faced cross-flow fluid recovery aspect,
as fluid's seem to be the best at absorbing thermals,
without changing states and loosing energy thusly.



As long as people can "get it",
grammer is a luxery for next lifetime,
and I'll always mistype and/or mispell...

Hope you'll let this slide.



OK, off the end of the ruler idea:
Peltier's have significant losse in efficientcy,
heat pumps have an < 4.0 avergae gain too.

can a heat pump generate enough heat to service
the very pumps/fans involved,
or does current accepted law forbt that ?


Second law of conversion is only for closed-loop (Steam) assesments.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 07:32:02 AM by CompuTutor »

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 06:56:12 AM »
I dont really follow the LENR equation, but Ill look it up. As I have reviewed a document thus far it deal with cold fusion which is not what Im doing.

CompuTutor

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 07:24:22 AM »
As this thread is yours, I'll respect that and butt out,
but LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) is a misnomer,
Just as bad as HHO is actually.

The human cell is supported by LENR by that definition,
and it is in infinitely inexaustable supply of energy too.

At least I didn't make up a new acronym like them to explain
what they really don't understand the process of, like:
CSNR (Change-State Nuclear Interaction) or something...

Ignore me, try stone, forget metal, it won't work.

Did you know Aero-Gel is a metal though (shuttle tiles),
it is mostly aluminum cool-whip with silica (sand) ?

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 06:58:58 PM »
Sorry, That makes sense.
Yes, Aero-gel has been a favorite of mine for years. A lattice matrix of silica made from nano crushed sand, and isoprophyl alcohol. 99% air, but with the tensile strength of steel per volume, all the while being lighter than polystyrene foam. It in fact floats on nitrogen. It can be made into just about anything, a battery, a capacitor, a conductor, an insulator, a foam that can be made with an insulating factor of R85. You can even eat it. But its best point is a piece the thickness of a piece of paper can rest on your hand, with a butane torch blowing on it, and you wont feel any heat transfer.

So despite its expense, it could be something very useful if married with the brown gas torch, or flame element for heating applications, as you could really keep the hot section hot, and not lose any heat applied. While keeping the rest of the equipment safe in a heater or other application. But at 70+ dollars for a little piece the size of a marble, its not in my pocket book. Another down side is its very fragile, like glass.

My flame tips arrived, a 3, 2, and 1 size from a jewelry torch. No I have to find a way to adapt them for use.

If I can get the flame size small enough, to get past the reactive flame, to just its heat output, I can dial it up or down as necessary.

I picked up some fittings to make some YouTube flame arrestors, and a bubbler diffuser, only to find the resistance to airflow through the line was ridiculous, So I may toss em, and take the parts back. My welding flame arrestor requires fairly high pressure to operate, so I may have to toss it as well.

My test bench is coming along nicely though. I have a generation side, and a testing side. The generation side is where all the liquid items are, and the dry side which is where all my testing and the gas is sent (separated by a wooden partition). The High powered A/C electronics are protected, and mounted above everything, and the lowered powered DC items, like gauges are mounted opposite of the generation side, yes still protected from any liquids, or mishaps.
Next Ill be working out a splash cage and fans for the generation side. The bench fully illuminated, and has enough room for me to take notes while its running. I'm using 10 gauge wire as the mains to the hydrogen generator, with a 30amp fuse placed in line to protect the electronics.
My reservoir is very small maybe a quart in liquid volume, and the cell is a 7 plate gap design. I made it like this as partially its what I had, but I should be able to get the cell up to operating temps faster with the smaller volume of electrolyte, and get to my testing ranges faster. The trick will be control of the cell.

Its a parallel cell, using highly reactive (electrically) elements researched from my chemistry experience in my last class, and trial and error.
My concern is even a a 40 amp dc to dc power module may end up just continuing to climb till it pops the fuse. So I will have to take things slowly to find the sweet spot. This would be where I have a sustained temperature, and a sustained flame via a torch tip.
Given each cell is different, I cannot use anything but estimates on starting points from other peoples experience.

Measurement: I bought an vertical ball gauge oxygen meter that measures in LPM. Now this is calibrated for oxygen which is a different density than a hydrogen and oxygen mixture, so I know it will be off a bit. So I also have the ghetto bottle filling station as well. Having two meters to measure gas should back each other up when it comes to real results.

I only wish i could find a gas sensor setup that would measure the content of the gases being produced. Nothing currently out there is made to detect gas content values in an air stream, for the gases we are making with these cells. If there was and it wasn't super expensive, then we would have the real tangible answers we need to refine the process further. After all its not just about the LPM, it about what is being produced in LPM. Some electrolyte, and metal mixtures produce deadly gases that would not be wise to exploit.

One thought for home heating though. We all know carbon monoxide is dangerous being released into a home via a heater, so is CO2. I had thought of using one of those Carbon monoxide detectors to check for CO content in the gas stream. I mean we wouldn't want a byproduct of the generator to be producing CO in the air while we sleep right? Perhaps just pointing the tube toward the sensor would reveal whether CO is being produced or not. Or it might false alarm by detecting what it thinks is CO as well.

I use K2CO3 for testing the bench, and KOH for actual recorded testing. Since Potassium Carbonate is less apt to burn me in the mixture rates Im using. Then once all the leaks are ironed out, I can rinse out the system and run it with KOH knowing Im not going to destroy my new bench.

Another thought of concern is hydrogen is lighter than even helium, it took scientists years to figure out how to store helium successfully. Now we are not storing it I know, however how much gas is making it past our gaskets? Could this lead to a fire if not properly ventilated?

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2012, 07:07:51 PM »
Sry for the DP,

I hooked up my bernz-o-matic to my propane bottle last night since it had a #3 tip on it like my jewelry tips I bought and lit her up to see what the flame size was. And frankly I was astonished having a 6 to 8 inch flame coming off this thing, with such a small nozzle.

When I get some more funds, Im going to make something that will allow me to test all the tips out.

Has anyone tried the basketball inflater tip as a flame tip? i wonder if it would melt after awhile.



CompuTutor

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2012, 11:14:59 PM »
under 22-PSI and/or OVER a 3/16 lead from the event horizon (flame rear) to the source,
your comfortable from incessive recursion into the flow path of standard HHO, despite arresters..

My inflator was a Bendix, standard basketball model,
didn't measure, I've moved, no additional data, sorry.

Previous = tested factors / post equals noted exceptions

This is going to seem counter intuitive,
but the closer you get the flame to the orifice the better.

Let me try to be clearer, when we diddle with regular gasses,
we tend to be cognisant of the burn rate by example/experience.

We are "Obeservant" of effect and change because we can see them...

But, those that have tested a 50' piece of 1/16" fish-tank hose know repeatadly,
that the flash at the other end into the ballon (at send end) appears instantanious.

So, seeing a lead frame before re-combination is an order more stable and predictable,
than with traditional gasses that we can "see" burn rate reaction because the flame propagation is within our visible observance and cognitive range of perception !

Don't underestimate how much error/horror has occurred due to this.

We are accustomed to "Being Able" to envision change with all we work with,
we ARE NOT accustomed to reactions outside of our perception range for sure.

To say "We saw that" implies we ONLY "saw that" in this case, as you can see...

I'll leave you with this question,
I'm from new England (Boston),
our granite emits heat very well,
moved to Pennsylvania next, sad,
but Houston Texas is MUCH WORSE.

What I mean is that if you heat our (NE) stone,
it emits better far IR than penn., and TX., by far.

why?

analisis shows only slightly higher sodium content...

There has to be so much more we just don't know.

There is a soap-stone I was given a sample of in Mildand, TX,
It would not secumb to sublimation at any range at all,
but sadly, it could not emit a snig of heat either it seemed...
"If it can change, it can / If it can change, it will"

Doesn't seem to apply here
what frequency is that soapstone re-emiting at,
that we most clearly cannot see ?

Sorry, spell like crap, type worse...

Paul-R

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2012, 03:43:35 PM »
LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) is a misnomer,
Just as bad as HHO is actually.
I think you will  find that the term HHO was coined by the legendary Bob Boyce
as a reply to a probalby spurious charge by someone who reckoned that they
owned the word "hydroxy".

HHO is defined as a stochiometric mix of hydrogen and oxygen generated on
demand by electrolysis or more preferably by water cracking.

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2012, 08:13:20 PM »
Funny,
I was conversing with CAL-TECH professors about "water cracking" 17 years ago. Before the HHO explosion, hell before youtube. lol

Just because someone claims ownership of something doesn't mean it can be stopped. Ideas, cannot be contained once they are shared. That's the difference between people trying to make the world a better place for everyone, or make a buck for themselves.
Too bad people place greed before generosity most of the time.

Paul-R

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2012, 05:28:30 PM »
Funny,
I was conversing with CAL-TECH professors about "water cracking" 17 years ago. Before the HHO explosion, hell before youtube. lol

Just because someone claims ownership of something doesn't mean it can be stopped. Ideas, cannot be contained once they are shared. That's the difference between people trying to make the world a better place for everyone, or make a buck for themselves.
Too bad people place greed before generosity most of the time.
Bob coined the expression; that's all. He owns rights on his hardware,
referred to in Chapter 10 which can be acquired through his site.

Nobody owns "water cracking". It goes back to the late 19th century and
John Worrell Keely. Hit water with a sound wave at 42.7172 hz and stuff
happens, apparently. (NB not an electromagnetic wave).

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2012, 07:42:40 PM »
Well the new test bench is up and running.
The first night i fought leak after leak in my lines. First in the reservoir lid, all the way down the lines.
Then my cell was surging, on its gas release, telling me a gasket has gone awry inside. This pulsing of the gasses made my O2 ball flow gauge bounce horribly. Once my temps were up to 115 degrees, I ran the 500ml bottle test and came up with only a 1.06mmw.
So somethings isn't right with the cell Ill have to look more into it, by cracking it back open and verifying everything.
    So this isnt inspring results, I know. But i would have thought a much better flow rate, but too many variables were left out, like the strength of the electrolyte wasnt known, leaks, and the cell misbehaving. The internally manifolded system utilizes gaskets to channel the flow of fluid and gos, while keeping the plates perfectly separated at 1/8". Its probably my fault, as I was in a hurry to get the thing together, rather than nit pick every detail.
I wont make the same mistake next time.
The 96 cavalier surge tank had its own problems... Namely the filler cap has flat spots on two sides, I imagine it was designed to release gas, not contain it. So I may have to modify it, or buy a new one.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 09:19:54 PM by ydeardorff »

Paul-R

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 12:30:03 AM »
Bob coined the expression; that's all. He owns rights on his hardware,
referred to in Chapter 10 which can be acquired through his site.

Nobody owns "water cracking". It goes back to the late 19th century and
John Worrell Keely. Hit water with a sound wave at 42.7172 hz and stuff
happens, apparently. (NB not an electromagnetic wave).
I got that frequency is wrong.

It should be 42.7172 Khz (or 42,717 hz).

Paul-R

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2012, 12:36:02 AM »
Once my temps were up to 115 degrees
What bulk of liquid are you using and how long did it take to get to that temperature?

It looks like too much of your electricity ends up as heat and the voltage across each cell is not good.

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2012, 01:14:52 AM »
My reservoir tank, and cell comprise about a quart of overall volume. it took probably about an hour to reach that temp.

I ran several tests this morning after being layed out sick for two days. I realized I was using a potash mixture of about 1/3 teaspoon per gallon, and getting about 1.5 mmw on my cell.

So after some tweaking on the new test bench, Im going to revamp my gaskets, and replace the K2CO3 with KOH at a strength of about 3 teaspoons per gallon and retest my results.

All of my tests today were from 7.5 vdc/9.8 amps through 11.5 vdc / 24.4 amps

I found out quickly that all of my new bench top equipment leaked like a seive, so i ended up running the reservoir output directly to my bottle tester to rule out as many leaks as possible, until I can get something else figured out. For  all I know the leaks may be the major culprit in the readings I got.

As an add on note,

I tore down the cell, and am replacing the gaskets with thinner ones. I also will be changing out my electrolyte to KOH, instead of K2CO3.
This will give me more info, and Ill be able to see if tightening up the gaps will help my mmw readings.

Heres the new test bench  http://youtu.be/RoaI-Io12Ko

The orange line of test 4 was the best in production per MMW readings @ 1.54mmw


« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:47:41 AM by ydeardorff »

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2012, 01:33:08 PM »
Oh and by the way, the volt/amp meter wasnt right. I wasnt producing bubbles at .2 amps. After the video I connected it through the meter and found I was running about 8amps. Once the leaks are fixed, I should be on my way to a decent generator for my home heater.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:53:48 PM by ydeardorff »