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Author Topic: HHO heaters design questions  (Read 37390 times)

ydeardorff

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HHO heaters design questions
« on: May 09, 2012, 09:13:01 PM »
I am working on a hho home heater.

My question is what flame tip to use. Id like to use a liquid cpu cooler system, but fear the flame would melt right through it.

Has anyone experimented with nozzle tips and flame length? I saw one person using a ball inflator tip as a nozzle. The flame was very small, but would that be too small?

Anyone know the limits to these cpu coolers and how much heat they can handle? I have some ceramic permeable cups I could use to diffuse the flame and spread the heat a bit.

I purchased a welding back flash arrester, and a set of jewelers welding tips sizes 1, 2, and 3 to test out. Hopefully I can make the hot section of this heater very small, but with a decent output.

The prospect of heating for less than 400 watts is VERY tantalizing.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:17:29 PM by ydeardorff »

Mark69

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2012, 02:20:11 AM »
Try this guy's videos on youtube.  He says he has adjustments to get the flame size you need.
Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lEXocd1BM

or more from smartscarecrow.  These guys put out some power!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p_T-AoBqCo&feature=plcp

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2012, 03:41:20 AM »
Yes I have talked with HHO connection.

The adjustments are done via the PWM. Im looking to control the flames maximum point via the nozzle, then dial it down from there as needed.

Mark69

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2012, 02:23:59 PM »
I would use the nozzle that gets you the biggest flame possible, then put some kind of valve on the supply tube, to cut back the flow rate.  That will reduce your flame size.  Think of it like an oxygen/ acetelene (sp) torch.  These have a round knob at the base to control the flow of one of or both of the gases, I forget which, to control the flame.

Paul-R

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2012, 04:58:40 PM »
I am working on a hho home heater.

My question is what flame tip to use.
If you are using pure stochoimetric HHO, the flame speed is supersonic
and you will end up blowing yourself and possibly neighbours from
here to eternity.

Pure HHO is VERY DANGEROUS INDEED.

You could mix in another gas, maybe air, but if this mixing process should
fail, then you are back on a death trip.

How are you generating the HHO? There may be (probably will be)a better
way to get to where you want to be.

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 08:23:43 PM »
If you are using pure stochoimetric HHO, the flame speed is supersonic
and you will end up blowing yourself and possibly neighbours from
here to eternity.

Pure HHO is VERY DANGEROUS INDEED.

You could mix in another gas, maybe air, but if this mixing process should
fail, then you are back on a death trip.

How are you generating the HHO? There may be (probably will be)a better
way to get to where you want to be.



Just like everyone else with an electrolysis unit. :o
Although, after 20 years of working in the military Im usually a little more safety conscious than the average joe bob six pack out there.
So my heater designs involve flame sensors, thermostats, auto igniters, gas flow solenoid valves, just to name a few things.

So yes hho is explosive, so is natural gas, and propane. ;)
And they have been used for years in home heating. So why not use hho if I can produce enough gas for under 400 watts, heck thats a massive drop on my electrical bill. Even if it used half of what my 20+ year old coleman electric home heater does, thats a plus.

A torch is a simple thing to build so thats my first item on my list, then a home/ workshop heater, and so on, maybe Ill work on a gas cook top too. ;D

after seeing this video, I have all the info i need to build my own system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8igW-cxnDw

Part of my job was R.E. while I was in the military. So if I can get a decent look at something, I can usually build it.

The biggest problem Ive seen in the designs of what been made available on you tube is the output temps are way to high for home use as a space heater. Imagine your toddler walking by a space heater that has a 1000 degree output temp. That's way to high for anything to be used safely in the home. So Im shooting a bit lower on the out put, but a larger air volume, and surface area in my heat exchangers to compensate.

Paul-R

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 10:53:31 PM »
So yes hho is explosive, so is natural gas, and propane. ;)

No, you are wrong, and if you persist, you will kill yourself.

Natural gas and propane burn.
HHO explodes.

This is because the flame speed is so great that effectively,
there is no flame front. It goes off everywhere.

You may ignite it at the burner but it will burn through the burner,
down the feeder pipe, blowing everything on its way. You don't
mention bubblers, and so the flame will burn back to where the
gas is generated. There will probably be a fair amount above
your electrolyser, and so that will get blown to smithereens.

Persist with this and you have enjoyed your last Christmas.
You probably won't make it to Whitsun.

Why not put the HHO into a petrol engine and use the shaft
horspower to generate electricity, and use that for heating?
(You will need to retard the ignition).

At least, that way, there is little chance of a wall of your workshop
being blown out across the street.

Paul-R

Patrick's masterwork will provide all you need:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 06:59:50 AM »
Im using several flame arrestors, in the system, as well as many safety features, Im not planning on using a bbq lighter to start the thing.

And my cell design allows me to separate the gases. so if the HHO, is a problem, I can add the membranes and just use the hydrogen alone.

Paul-R

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 10:49:47 AM »

And my cell design allows me to separate the gases.
In that case, there should not be the problem. But you are
not actually using HHO, but H2 instead.

Don't forget that you need a sophistcated electrolysis system
or you will get not more heat out than the heat value of
the electrciity that you put in. Chapter 10 should help.

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 07:58:42 PM »
yes, I am well aware of that. 20 years working with metals, 5 years on this project, and 3 of that in R&D has led to more time and expense than its probably worth.
I first have to finish refining the design of my cell, then flow test it under varying conditions (recording all data). Then Ill start with an HHO torch for cutting steel, then move into studying the flame intensity temperatures at varying nozzle sizes, flow rates, and distances.

Then on to a home heater, water heater, and cook top.

Should my design have a high enough flow rate, I may look into doing some genset tests with my two 5K gensets I have.

The whole move toward a car and getting better mileage is tantilizing, but I have no cheap car to test it on. Im not going to risk damaging our two new cars on an experiment.

Thanks for your cause for concern. I have more than 20 years military, heavy construction,welding, foundry, and various other industrial trade experience.
I do not take hho lightly, but do know its potential if mastered properly.

But I mean to test out every application I can to this that might render fruit. There are too many Naysayers, as well as BS'ers out there to believe everything you see on youtube, so I mean to test out everything myself, and as scientifically as I know how.

My test bench includes:
70amp pwm with frequency and duration adjustments, and intellegent memory settings (with 50 amp inline fuse)
electrolyzer digital temp gauge
reservoir digital temp gauge
A flame arrest-or between each item on the system (including bubblers)
A source amp gauge
An electrolyzer digital volt/amp gauge
4 power supply test circuits (a car engine start run stand, 240watt comp supply, 480 watt comp supply, and a 600watt comp supply)
A low tech 20 oz (591ml) bottle flow speed tester
An oxygen LPM flow test gauge (vertical ball gauge)
A large display digital stop watch
One large 1 gallon bubbler with air stone diffuser
One smaller one quart bubbler
An ultrasonic emitter system (to test resonance)
And one final oxy/acetylene brass flame arrestor at the work end on the line.
The test bench is also being fitted with an acrylic splash shield, and ventilation system
When mixing chemicals i use splash proof goggles, a full chemical apron, face shield, and elbow length chemical gloves
During testing and leak testing I use K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) as its less caustic than KOH (potassium hydroxide)
When all leaks, and testing have been accomplished then, the system is clean, and flushed then replaced with KOH for actual use.
Potassium carbonate, potassium bicarbonate, and sodium hydroxide can release dangerous gasses so my preferred electrolyte is KOH.
However, the real goal is no catalyst in the water at all.


My reservoir has a low level indicator which Im playing with tying into a relay to kick on an auto refill system via a solenoid valve

Again thank you for the warnings, but I am not the avg Joe here, not knowing what I'm playing with. So again thank you for your concern, and trying to help. Id love to explain my cell more, but I didn't spend 3 years developing it, to just give it away. Im not in it for the money, I'm in this to get the best electrode pairing, plate gap, cell design, and applications worked out into something as useful as possible.
Three years of studying chemistry, metallurgy, electron valances, battery design, corrosion properties, and a semester at ITT tech, as well as my current in process engineering degree, have led to very amazing discoveries thus far.

Im using a 1996 chevy cavalier coolant overflow tank as my reservoir. Although small, it is perfectly suited for this application. its internal baffling, and gas separator design works very well. The small capacity allow the cell to get up to operating temp sooner which helps for testing. As mentioned before it has a switch in it that I may or may not use as a electrolyte level indicator. For now until I know how it works Ill leave it unpowered.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 10:12:03 PM by ydeardorff »

mscoffman

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 10:40:32 PM »
Yes, don't be alarmed at using HHO for a heater application because you will have
only very small amounts of total HHO gas in it at any one time. Obviously do not
buffer/store HHO gas ever! Use a gaseous fuel flashback preventer between the burner
and the electrolyzer to prevent flashback. Give the electrolyser what I would call it
a rupture-disc top so that if it does blow it will pop the plastic top off the electrolyser
and not break the electrolyser's container. The flashback preventer is nothing more than
forcing the gas through a pipe with a lateral metal screen or gauze in it so that the
flame's heat cannot get through from input to output of the fb preventer pipe.
 
Now I would reccommend utilizing this in a heater application. (rather the a torch or
cook stove) The way to do this is to force a single hydrogen torch burner to point
forward into the center of a bunch of six inch cut off copper water pipes mechanically
bound into a cluster.
 
All of the above described quite accurately in video plans from a web site;
hhohhu.com
 
You can do a search at the top of this overunity.com web site for the string
"hhohhu.com" to see prior posts about this. If there is any way for you to find
the videos 1a.pdf... by all means do so because it accurately describe what is
required to build this heater in detail. Also at the web site: peswiki.com there
is also some historical information on it.
 
---
 
What you are trying to do is use the best possible HHO electrolyzer technology
to get over Faraday amounts of HHO gas, if possible, and then burn that gas in
a catalytic burner (the cluster of copper tubes).
 
The heater operates on LENR energy principles, it is two stage overunity,
1x when the HHO is electrolysed the 1x again when it is burned
catalytically. This cause the energy output to be LENR gain squared
but you will need to use LENR gain squared to get adequate net energy
gain out of the heater when running it on 500W.
 
Please let us know how your device turns out.
 
:S:MarkSCoffman

ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2012, 11:21:26 PM »
Thanks,
I am not pursuing the HHO heater plans with the copper pipes. Namely because my wife watches kids, and some of these heaters can put out over 1000 degrees within inches of the output. So my first test of design will be using round CPU heat sinks. The centers punch out, and can be mounted on a copper pipe. cool air is then blown over them, through a loose fitting duct to transfer heat.

The next design, once I can get nozzle to flame temp distances measured out is using a liquid cooling system for a PC. This will not only pump the coolant, but blow it out through essentially a large heat exchanger like a radiator.

By marrying tip size, hho flow rate, and distance from the flame I can easily dial in what temp exposure the cpu cooler gets exposed to.
That combined with a ceramic cup to spread the heat load, I can get this system to operate how I want it too.

Then Ill tie that into a digital thermostat, and auto ignition system. Combined it will make the system completely stand alone like a home furnace. While maintaining such safety features as auto relight, gas solenoid valves, and internal temp sensors. It sounds involved, but Id rather have utterly redundant safety systems, and be overly cautious then have a bbq lighter button to light it.

That way the unit can run, even at night while we sleep. without worry of the flame going out, and filling the house with hydrogen gas.


Mark69

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 05:43:39 AM »
Looking forward to your progress.  Also, for your radiator idea or hot water heater idea, I would suggest to use something that can hold a higher temp before boiling, like oil for example.  Then you could use the oil to heat your water.  You can control the flow of oil to moderate your water temp and could probably run it less, since the hho or h burns so much hotter.


ydeardorff

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 06:08:22 AM »
Good idea, Im wondering if the CPU cooler could use oil, if it doesn't already. Depending on the oil, the only thing possibly needed might just be different hoses which I may have to modify anyway.
Using the CPU cooler allows I believe an equalization to be had. A loss of extremely high heat in a small volume, for a lower heat over a larger volume.

mscoffman

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Re: HHO heaters design questions
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2012, 10:20:43 PM »
The reason that this device would make a good saleable product at the
right price is that in the US is that we can only expect 1850Watts to be
delivered from a lighting utility circuit. So that is a maximum with resistive
heating, while one really desires maybe 3->5KW of heat from a heater.
(like one of those old but rather dangerous kerosene room heaters.)
 
Baseboard electric heaters are a good deal but require a 230/240VAC
connection which limits their portability as this requires specialised
outlets or direct wiring.
 
Also one does not want to run a device at 15 Amp maximum or else other
devices cannot be plugged in on the circuit without blowing fuses or breakers.
And...one often desires but should not, locate a heater at the end of an
inexpensive extension cord. All these things argue for maybe a 500Watt upper
limit (like a home computer) on the amount of input current required to
be supplied. The 500Watt input vs 3->5KW output is obviously too disperate.
 
So, there is no way to supply this need without using LENR gain aside from a
portable heat pump with it's large ID hose going out of a window - which is
generally unacceptable. So this is a needed device. If the electrical input
really is only 500Watts maximum, suitable output heat levels will only be
obtained through LENR or other energy gain. Storage of hydrogen gas is
inadvisable and of HHO gas impossible.
 
This is an application with a required need independent of simple green vs
financial considerations.
 
 
:S:MarkSCoffman