Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ? (Read 924188 times)

nul-points · « **Reply #975 on:** November 28, 2011, 09:14:25 PM »

Quote from: NerzhDishual on November 28, 2011, 12:27:04 AM

[..]
IMHO: Names are not innocent/insignificant and Hecate seems not to be
a "cool" Goddess. Hence the differings (that are over my head, BTW).
[...]

your posts are always an education, Mr Dishual !

the ancient stories of Hecate (or Hecat, as Shakespeare apparently refers) have passed me by in my many decades of ignorance

however, if we were to add some 'Power' to her name, then she could have enjoyed being called 'Hepcat' - the very 'Queen of cool'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepcat

keep on keeping us 'on our toes'

a plus tard

NerzhDishual · « **Reply #976 on:** December 02, 2011, 11:53:34 PM »

Hello NP and People,

As far as I can see, Mr Nul-Point(s) has not lost his legendary humour and his
strong musical inclination.

It sounds like that speaking about Hecate (or Hecat) has cut this thread off...
Hecate is also the Dark Moon and one of the keyword about "it" is "cutting".

Now, to be more 'light', musical and also on our toes

:
What Tau Sounds Like. (BTW: TAU = PI *2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3174T-3-59Q
A must see vid for any musician (IMHO)...

Very Best

dimbulb · « **Reply #977 on:** December 30, 2011, 05:59:35 AM »

to itsuseable,
I would think a comparator would measure the light output.

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #978 on:** January 07, 2012, 05:16:08 PM »

Greetings. I've gone on to a much higher-power device that I'm testing, discussed here (where I'm "PhysicsProf"):

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-55.html#post174647

From mW and uW with the circuit of this thread, to hundreds of watts... Resonance is still in play!!

I find that my friends from this this thread have also studied this type of "sonic boiler" or "Davey device", especially Nul-Points and Nerzh. Just curious -- why did you stop working on the Davey device, friends? Would you reconsider?

I welcome comments you have. This topic is "heating up" with the work especially in Serbia by Prof. Savic and in Sweden by DaemonBart. It's difficult to keep up with all forums, but I will try to respond to comments here. I have posted first detailed measurements; see below.

________________________ from the EF forum posting; also discussion at overunityresearch.com.

OK, I have some first results from my sonic boiler (call it SBSJ1) set up, as shown in photo attached.

I will show my method for determining Pinput and Poutput and the results, and invite comments on both.

I have a CEN-TECH P3 "Kill-a-watt" meter that displays KW-H to 0.01 accuracy. I ran this P3 meter with a load until it just turned on the display to 0.05 KWH. Next I ran my SBSJ1 device until it reached boiling (which stirs the water), stopped registering the time elapsed with a stop-watch, 62 seconds. I quickly measured Temperatures inside the inner bell and between the inner and outer bells using an infrared temp probe and took an average Temp.

I let the sbsj1 cool (to 98F) and ran a second time with the same measurements, and this time the P3 turned to 0.06 KWH, so I stopped the run there to take measurements, 31s. The total elapsed time was 62+31 = 93 s.

By using the P3 JUST AS the reading turns to a higher value, increasing by 0.01KWH, I believe the accuracy is quite good, probably within 10% with this method.

Consider a 100W bulb for 1 hour = 0.1 KWH. Thus, 0.01 KWH in 1/10th hour = 6 minutes = 360 s.
Here in my experiment we have 0.01 KWH in 93 seconds, so the power is more than 100W, and I calculate:
Pin = 360s/93s X 100W = 387W.

Next, to calculate the output power, first I calculate the heat-energy Q calorimetrically, using the Temp-rise in the water.
Q = Cg X m X (Tfinal - Tinitial).

For the first run of 62 s, Tfinal - Tinitial = 147Fahr - 83F = 64F = 36Celsius temp rise.
For the second run of 31 s, Tfinal - Tinitial = 145F - 98F = 47F = 26Celsius temp rise.

Here, Q = 4.18 [J/g-C] X 125g X 36C = 18810 J for the first run, and
Q = 4.18 [J/g-C] X 125g X 26C = 14120 J for the second run.
Total heat measured, Qtotal = 32930 J in 93 s, so
Pout = Q/total-time = 32930J/93s = 354W.

Which is less than Pinput.

Finally, I calculate the efficiency n = Pout/Pin = 354W/387W = 0.91 Not surprising -- no attempt at tuning for this baseline run.

Any comments on the method or the results?

PS -- the outer bell has OD about 65 mm and the inner bell about 39 mm. See photo.

Rosemary Ainslie · « **Reply #979 on:** January 08, 2012, 01:01:52 AM »

Hello again Professor - and compliments of the season.

I see you've been busy debunking this new claim. Well done. I was reasonably satisfied that you'd rally.

Sorry to move a tad off topic here but I've been trying to reach you. I wonder if you could send me your email address. My own is ainslie@mweb.co.za. I forwarded an email to Poynty and asked him to please notify you. You see I've asked that you and he also attempt to debunk our own claim as I believe we're strong contenders for your prizes and we're rather anxious to get this assessed.

Do let me know. I've taken the liberty of evaulating your own prize contribution - and am not sure that it'll entirely cover the cost of this 'evaluation'. Poynty hasn't replied to me. Not sure why. Possibly he's just not able to debunk as he's fairly familiar with our circuit. And that means that he's denial of over unity in ours and other experiments will be shown to be entirely fallacious. Possibly he's concerned that this may lessen his credibility somewhat. But I know that your own impartiality is such that you will more likely want to engage. I do hope so.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary Ainslie

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #980 on:** January 08, 2012, 02:48:04 AM »

Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on January 08, 2012, 01:01:52 AM

Hello again Professor - and compliments of the season.

I see you've been busy debunking this new claim. Well done. [snip]

Kindest regards,
Rosemary Ainslie

What are you talking about, Rose? I did NOT debunk the tuned-sonic boiler claims, not at all. I explained that I was not surprised that my preliminary results show an efficiency close to unity -- because, as I clearly stated, I did not TUNE the device at all. Further, I referred to these data as a "baseline" run.
Now about testing your device, I'm willing to take a look. I'll send you an email. But somehow you have got to stop twisting what I say into something that I did not say at all.

Rosemary Ainslie · « **Reply #981 on:** January 08, 2012, 03:33:46 PM »

Hello Professor,

Just a few points.

Quote from: JouleSeeker on January 07, 2012, 05:16:08 PM

OK, I have some first results from my sonic boiler (call it SBSJ1) set up, as shown in photo attached.

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to call it SBSP(Serbian Professor) lest his initialising all this get lost in the 'noise'?

Quote from: JouleSeeker on January 07, 2012, 05:16:08 PM

I will show my method for determining Pinput and Poutput and the results, and invite comments on both.

And this. That Pinput and Poutput - is really confusing and entirely non standard terminology. All the more irritating as you then resolve your numbers in Watts which is not 'P' anything at all. Professor - there is nothing wrong with the standard model's standard terminologies. I believe Poynty Point has been rather more successful than is merited in introducing that PIN POUT nonsense. And, while the most of us are already struggling with physics I'm not sure that we're helped by an introduction of these rather strange acronyms. You see the problem I hope? If POUT exceeds PIN then PIN must have been initialised by POUT. Much better to simply reference the source of the input energy compared to the dissipated energy. That way there are no confusions. If you need to impose an acronym - then, perhaps it would be as well to define your terms.

Quote from: JouleSeeker on January 07, 2012, 05:16:08 PM

I have a CEN-TECH P3 "Kill-a-watt" meter that displays KW-H to 0.01 accuracy. I ran this P3 meter with a load until it just turned on the display to 0.05 KWH. Next I ran my SBSJ1 device until it reached boiling (which stirs the water), stopped registering the time elapsed with a stop-watch, 62 seconds. I quickly measured Temperatures inside the inner bell and between the inner and outer bells using an infrared temp probe and took an average Temp.

And this. How can you claim that level of accuracy when the machine is measuring hundreds of watts with an instrument that measures in the Kilowatt range? Possibly it will work as a comparative measurement. But I'm not sure that the number is entirely reliable. Perhaps you can put our minds at ease on this point.

Quote from: JouleSeeker on January 07, 2012, 05:16:08 PM

I let the sbsj1 cool (to 98F) and ran a second time with the same measurements, and this time the P3 turned to 0.06 KWH, so I stopped the run there to take measurements, 31s. The total elapsed time was 62+31 = 93 s.

And this. Would it not have been better to let the experiment cool to it's initial temperature before you ran the second test? If this assumption is simply wrong then I'm sure that there would be others too, who would like to understand this better. May we impose on you to explain this?

You see this I hope. There are those of us who are entirely unqualified. And we would prefer to follow the rarefied thinking behind all you professionals. It would help us all understand things better. And it really doesn't add much more time to write INPUT than it does to write PINPUT. I'd have thought.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #982 on:** January 08, 2012, 08:13:17 PM »

Waiting for the water in my test device to cool back to room temp would have taken a long time, Rose, so I let it cool to 98F (body temp LOL) then I started up the DUT again for the tests. I don't think it would have made much difference really, starting the second run at 98F or 70F... especially since the device was not tuned at all.

It is a good suggestion, heard also on other forums, to simply use ENERGY input and energy output, which I will do in the future -- although evaluating the power consumed by the device is also useful IMO.

NerzhDishual · « **Reply #983 on:** January 08, 2012, 08:45:54 PM »

Hi Prof. Jones,

Thanks for reactivating This Peter D. Davey's device.

Why did I stop working on this device?
Just because I was disappointed by my results.
And also, perhaps, because a lack of perseverance.

Anyway, I continue to believe that this device is worth to be tested with a positive mind.

Would I reconsider?
Yes, of course.

-------------------------
I agree with your your method. I used a similar one.
I got some "COP = Coefficient Of Performance" more than 0.9.
I also measured few "COP" slightly > 1 but, IHMO, these are measurements errors.
I did not use any calorimeter.

I only considered the initial and final (tap) water temperature and the volume of the said water to calculate "what was going out" assuming that my kinda "Kill-a-watt" meter was able to tell me "what was going in" with enough accuracy. Actually, with a mere boiler I did not get unusual results.

I use prudent "inverted commas" just because I noticed that writing some appellations immediately rose some stinging remarks.

Just in case, my page :
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/calcul_sonette.htm

I did not try any "input current frequency" tuning.
I just tried different "boilers" pathetically hoping to stumble upon a good tuned one.
I mean: a boiler that resonate at an upper harmonic of 50 Hz (in Europe).

I also tried to figure out the main "self freq" or some devices (in air).
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/

This should be useless as the "self freq" of a device is not the same in water than in air. Is it?

Tired to blow too many "main fuses", I also built a fuse box allowing only "input amps" < 15.
With this limitation I did not try to boil water but I could perform some electrolysis at the same time.

--------------------

Now, I guess that I should experiment:
Inverse osmosis filtered water.
Distilled water.

If you have any suggestion, I would be pleased to experiment.

Very Best

Magluvin · « **Reply #984 on:** January 08, 2012, 09:10:25 PM »

Quote from: JouleSeeker on January 08, 2012, 08:13:17 PM

although evaluating the power consumed by the device is also useful IMO.

Absolutely. If the circuit(not the source or the load) consumes, as in heating of resistors, semiconductors(needing heat sinks), these data are very important.

Lets say we have 10w in and 9w out, that doesnt "necessarily" mean that 3w couldnt be dissipated by the circuit. Especially if OU is what we are looking for. ;]

Mags

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #985 on:** January 09, 2012, 05:34:24 PM »

Good point, Mags.

Quote from: NerzhDishual on January 08, 2012, 08:45:54 PM

Hi Prof. Jones,

Thanks for reactivating This Peter D. Davey's device.

Why did I stop working on this device?
Just because I was disappointed by my results.
And also, perhaps, because a lack of perseverance.
Anyway, I continue to believe that this device is worth to be tested with a positive mind.

Would I reconsider?Yes, of course.

-------------------------
I agree with your your method. I used a similar one.
I got some "COP = Coefficient Of Performance" more than 0.9.
I also measured few "COP" slightly > 1 but, IHMO, these are measurements errors.
I did not use any calorimeter.

I only considered the initial and final (tap) water temperature and the volume of the said water to calculate "what was going out" assuming that my kinda "Kill-a-watt" meter was able to tell me "what was going in" with enough accuracy. Actually, with a mere boiler I did not get unusual results.

I use prudent "inverted commas" just because I noticed that writing some appellations immediately rose some stinging remarks.

Just in case, my page :
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/calcul_sonette.htm

I did not try any "input current frequency" tuning.
I just tried different "boilers" pathetically hoping to stumble upon a good tuned one.
I mean: a boiler that resonate at an upper harmonic of 50 Hz (in Europe).

I also tried to figure out the main "self freq" or some devices (in air).
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/

This should be useless as the "self freq" of a device is not the same in water than in air. Is it?

Tired to blow too many "main fuses", I also built a fuse box allowing only "input amps" < 15.
With this limitation I did not try to boil water but I could perform some electrolysis at the same time.

--------------------

Now, I guess that I should experiment:
Inverse osmosis filtered water.
Distilled water.

If you have any suggestion, I would be pleased to experiment.

Very Best

OK! Je suis heureux, mon ami!

Good to hear from you again, Nerzh.
Let's say a good fellow in Serbia provides such a "sonic boiler" that begs to be tested. (I will spare you all the details of the discussion between him and me... Proceeding very well!)
However, it needs 50 Hz and 220-230 volts to operate. Hence, I seek someone (or ones) to do the testing in Europe. Should be straightforward. Do you have a kill-a-watt meter or equivalent to measure input power from the mains?
(Shipping costs etc provided by moi -- no problem.)

Would you be willing to measure Ein and Eout (heat) and post results no matter what they turned out to be? and we could arrange for follow-up testing especially if it turns out that COP>2 as he claims...
Further, he agrees that this will be OPEN SOURCE, so there is no secrecy or proprietary stuff to worry about!

What do you think?

NerzhDishual · « **Reply #986 on:** January 10, 2012, 08:05:15 PM »

Hi Prof. Steven Jones,

Thank you for your awakening proposition !

I have an Energy Meter.
It is in not "Kill a Watt" branded but should do the job.
I can try to measure the precision of this device with a non inductive charge
(a mere resistor).

I also can afford some new equipments and also some parts and shipping costs.
All the fees are on me.

Yes, of course, I will be very pleased to do any tests and to
measure "PIN/Ein" versus "POUT/Eout" and to post my results should they were
negative.
Open Source of course (OSOC)!

Please just give me the instructions.

Very Best

JouleSeeker · « **Reply #987 on:** January 10, 2012, 10:33:48 PM »

Quote from: NerzhDishual on January 10, 2012, 08:05:15 PM

Hi Prof. Steven Jones,

Thank you for your awakening proposition !

I have an Energy Meter.
It is in not "Kill a Watt" branded but should do the job.
I can try to measure the precision of this device with a non inductive charge
(a mere resistor).

I also can afford some new equipments and also some parts and shipping costs.
All the fees are on me.

Yes, of course, I will be very pleased to do any tests and to
measure "PIN/Ein" versus "POUT/Eout" and to post my results should they were
negative.
Open Source of course (OSOC)!

Please just give me the instructions.

Very Best

Great! The game is afoot...

OSOC! and of course, I hope the results will be positive! but whatever they are, as scientists, we need to report our results. That's IMO.

And I'll pay all shipping fees (please!).

OK -- pls send your shipping address information to my private email, emdevice12@yahoo.com.
Then we'll go from there. I'm hoping the device can be sent to you rather soon.

(Let's ask NP to join the adventure!)

NerzhDishual · « **Reply #988 on:** January 11, 2012, 12:00:43 AM »

OK Prof !

Sounds very good. I have just sent you a private email.

BTW: about NP/ND exchanges and strange emails...
Usually (

) a lot of our emails vanish in Hyperspace, 4Th Dimension or whatever.

Just one recent example:
NP sent me an email on 24 Dec 2011.
I procrastinated (as usual) but answered him on 01 Jan 2012 (I gave him some excuses for answering late

).

Guess what? My delayed answer seems also to have disappeared...

So, Mr Nul Point(s), please feel reassured: I'm not trying to be silent and/or rude.

Very Best

Rosemary Ainslie · « **Reply #989 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:37:24 AM »

Hello again, Steve

I'm not sure that you subscribe to my thread. May I ask you to dip in there. I'm in need of some discussion - obviously only if you have time. I see you're very busy here.

Kindest,
Rosemary

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Author Topic: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ? (Read 924188 times)

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