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Author Topic: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them  (Read 187672 times)

oswaldonfire

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The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« on: July 20, 2010, 05:30:31 PM »

The largest - surface area. How do we fix that? What substance contains more surface area than anything else? What can you do to a conventional electrode to increase the surface area - say from a few square inches - to several thousand yards - in less than a few cubic inches of space? The answer to this question will eventually lead you to extremely efficient electrolysis... and yes, overunity. Think outside the box - way outside. It is incredibly simple, yet I only know a few people who have done it.

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dasimpson

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 08:15:45 PM »
steel wool lol

or stainless steel racing tank
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oswaldonfire

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 09:27:30 PM »
Steel wool would have a lot of area, but not enough. It's not what we're after.

And a racing tank will not have thousands of yards of surface area.

HINT - think microscopic.
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atlantex

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 11:32:20 AM »
maybe a lot of tiny steel balls in the container.

there is a structure in a car excaust catalyst which hast such dimensions, but its not made of any useable material for our needs, as fas as i know until now...
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oswaldonfire

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 04:35:00 PM »
You're getting a little closer, but still not there.

You're both thinking MACROSCOPIC - we want MICROSCOPIC.

Can you think of a system in which the electrodes are so small, it will be nearly impossible to get power to them? I can.

Which has more surface area: a bucket of peas, a bucket of rice, or a bucket of granulated sugar? As the particle sizes decrease, surface area increases - an inverse relationship. What states that we must stop at the size of granulated sugar? Think smaller!

Another problem with conventional electrolysis - gasses building up on the plates. If we solve the above problem, we also solve this problem. There will not be large enough "flat" spots for bubbles to collect on.
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vrstud

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 04:58:59 PM »
That is how the diet coke and mentos trick works.  The mentos surface is actually very rough and is filled with little pits and valleys.  This gives it a very large surface area which allows for more of the carbon dioxide to form on its surface.  The same thing happens your straw when you put it in a cup of soda, only on a much lower scale.
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oswaldonfire

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 05:19:18 PM »
That is correct vrstud. But we're looking at using extreme surface area to get rid of the gasses - not collect them.

How is this possible? Find the answer to my quote below:

Quote
You're both thinking MACROSCOPIC - we want MICROSCOPIC.

Can you think of a system in which the electrodes are so small, it will be nearly impossible to get power to them? I can.

Which has more surface area: a bucket of peas, a bucket of rice, or a bucket of granulated sugar? As the particle sizes decrease, surface area increases - an inverse relationship. What states that we must stop at the size of granulated sugar? Think smaller!
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atlantex

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2010, 05:21:20 PM »
maybe a metallic powder wich is mixed with water.
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oswaldonfire

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2010, 05:26:02 PM »
Yes, you're getting there! This gives us a HUGE surface area, and there are very small particles dispersed within the water - the gasses are given off straight into solution.

Take a small block of, say, aluminum, with 6 square inches of surface area. Now grind it down into a VERY fine powder, and it has thousands and thousands of inches of surface area.

Now the question is, how do we provide electricity to these particles (our electrodes)?
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atlantex

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2010, 05:43:24 PM »
hold a blank end of copper cable into the mixture and see how the water becomes "dirty" :-)))

Well, the only way can be a electric or magnetic field, the positv side could be the container itself.
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oswaldonfire

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 05:50:36 PM »
You seem to be right on the money, atlantex. You are correct that the only way to provide power is by a magnetic field. For now, let's forget about the container. Because if you use the container for an electrode, then we are still limited by that lack of surface area.

Now comes the hard part, with lots of tiny details on the edge of known science. Have you heard of a process called magnetic induction? We must induce a current into the particles using a changing magnetic field.

Another problem - what would you do about oxidation problems? The increased surface area also opens up more opportunities for chemical reactions - oxidation. So far as I know, there is only one solution. (Besides using a metal that is not easily oxidized.. and also very expensive!)
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bolt

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 06:52:58 PM »
Quote from: oswaldonfire on July 22, 2010, 05:50:36 PM
You seem to be right on the money, atlantex. You are correct that the only way to provide power is by a magnetic field. For now, let's forget about the container. Because if you use the container for an electrode, then we are still limited by that lack of surface area.

Now comes the hard part, with lots of tiny details on the edge of known science. Have you heard of a process called magnetic induction? We must induce a current into the particles using a changing magnetic field.

Another problem - what would you do about oxidation problems? The increased surface area also opens up more opportunities for chemical reactions - oxidation. So far as I know, there is only one solution. (Besides using a metal that is not easily oxidized.. and also very expensive!)

You make a capicitrode tank using foil on OUTSIDE each end of tank. Then you pump a high frequency into the capacitor plates end infinite VSWR which creates scaler waves. This will act on every molecule of water without electrode metal contact. Now beat that for surface area! A bit like a microwave oven.:)

The HHO production is created from the Radiant energy tensor and very little power required.
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oswaldonfire

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 07:10:19 PM »
As all of you probably know, if you drop Sodium into water you get the following reaction:

2Na + 2H2O --> 2NaOH + H2 

Sodium is a metal.. it conducts electricity. It is NONferrous... yet it can be influenced by a changing magnetic flux... it can be affected by electromagnetic induction.

This is the final piece of the puzzle. Can any of you figure out the rest?
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atlantex

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2010, 07:29:51 PM »
my electric toohtbrush is using induction to load the battery, that came to my mind like a flash to induct the "electrods" with power. As far as I know, there are little coils in the game...

Well the oxyd problem, glycol (in car antifreez) would reduce it a bit.

In pipeline and bridge engineering, they are using a special anode (think it was graphit) to prevend rust on metals. Maybe it goes in this direction.
Also, there are system for water pipes for homes, which "should" take effect to the water hardness...

For a first shoot, I would try destilled water, maybe in combination with an electrolyte (will affect to the alu). We should also try to prevent to have oxigen in the system.

To be honest, I'm not good in chemical questions, hopefully here can help another user in the board.

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oswaldonfire

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Re: The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2010, 07:41:33 PM »
You are right about the coils. I will tell you that using a coil is the way to go. A SINGLE coil will provide for the entire process.

The aluminum was just an example. In my previous post, I mentioned SODIUM. I suggest that you start looking in that area, that is the metal that I would suggest using. Do sodium ions in solution oxidize like normal sodium? NO. That is the solution (no pun intended) to the oxidation problem.
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