What is cosine of 90 degrees, O Great Sykes? It is ZERO.

Current is not voltage (EMF).  When a _Voltage_ is applied to an inductor, the _current_ takes some time to rise up to its final value. In Brad's schematic he is measuring _current_ through a resistor on one coil, and _voltage_ across the second coil.

We used to have an insurance company over here, it went broke, their Moto was "State the Obvious"!

TK, youre back pedling and it doesnt look good at all!

Ole Mate, admit it, you were terribly wrong! I am right, The EMF, Electromagnetic Induction, is 180 degrees out of phase to its source unless another Source of induction enters the equation!

And also, youre not right entirely about the EMF thing only being voltage... You are really generalising and expecting others to read between the lines and get it, what you actually mean. EMF is Electro Motive Force, this is not defined simply as Voltage! It is defined as "coulomb's of charge"...


Bad day old Mate?



   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

@ Minnie & MH

Well minnie/MH,it seems we have a problem.
As i need to brush up on my induction skills,i am awaiting your input.
Which is the correct wave form(scope shot) for the below circuit ?.

Maybe MH might even like to have a go at this one.
Which is correct MH--surly you are full bottles on plain old induction

Is it the first scope shot/schematic that is correct,or is it the second scope shot with same attached schematic that is correct?.

Either of you two dare to answer>?

Brad

One more time, we are back with trying to deal with your stunted communications skills, laziness, and inability to state something properly.

You post two drawings that include scope captures and ask which one is correct.  You are asking about phasing issues were the relationship between the frequency, the resistance, and the inductance is critical for determining the phase, but you don't provide any inductance measurements.

It looks like you may intentionally be hiding the voltage scales so we cannot tell what the waveform amplitudes are.

It says, "air or steel laminated core" on the drawings, so which is it?  I am assuming that it is a steel laminated core but you don't say.

This is the doozie:

First you say:

Maybe MH might even like to have a go at this one.
Which is correct MH--surly you are full bottles on plain old induction

Is it the first scope shot/schematic that is correct,or is it the second scope shot with same attached schematic that is correct?.

Either of you two dare to answer>?

Then  you say:

I will add a little something for you to think about.
Both scope shot's are from the same circuit.
1 scope shot is the result of a PM (that can do no useful work )placed next to the transformer,and oscillating at the resonant frequency of that transformer,but where the field alignment dose not change.

So the setup is not the same for the two scope captures.

What does, "oscillating at the resonant frequency of that transformer" mean?

What does, "the field alignment dose not change" mean?

You are so crippled in your communications skills it's almost unbelievable.  You can't punch your way out of a wet paper bag when it comes to describing something in a logical fashion with no ambiguities.

You ask a completely loaded question and you at first don't even state that you changed the setup between the first and second scope capture.

Like usual, when you try to present something just moderately detailed, it's a complete disaster.

MileHigh

One more time, we are back with trying to deal with your stunted communications skills, laziness, and inability to state something properly.

You post two drawings that include scope captures and ask which one is correct.  You are asking about phasing issues were the relationship between the frequency, the resistance, and the inductance is critical for determining the phase, but you don't provide any inductance measurements.

It looks like you may intentionally be hiding the voltage scales so we cannot tell what the waveform amplitudes are.

It says, "air or steel laminated core" on the drawings, so which is it?  I am assuming that it is a steel laminated core but you don't say.

This is the doozie:

First you say:

Then  you say:

So the setup is not the same for the two scope captures.

What does, "oscillating at the resonant frequency of that transformer" mean?

What does, "the field alignment dose not change" mean?

You are so crippled in your communications skills it's almost unbelievable.  You can't punch your way out of a wet paper bag when it comes to describing something in a logical fashion with no ambiguities.

You ask a completely loaded question and you at first don't even state that you changed the setup between the first and second scope capture.

Like usual, when you try to present something just moderately detailed, it's a complete disaster.

MileHigh

Just say "I dont Know" MilleHehehehe!!!

It would be so much easier!!!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Here I've taken a random ferrite-core transformer from my junk stash and connected the Primary in series with a 0.1 ohm non-inductive Ohmite resistor. I then connected it to my F43 function generator set to about 1 kHz sine wave, with the Black output lead connected to the open end of the CSR and the Red output lead connected to the other end of the transformer's Primary. So the CH1 (Yellow) trace is looking at the Vdrop = current through the CSR and Primary. I connected the CH2 (Blue) probe directly across the Secondary of the transformer, so it is looking at the induced voltage across the Secondary. This is equivalent to the schematic Brad has shown, with the exception that I am driving the primary simply with the direct output of the F43 (since it is powerful enough to do so.)

Observe.

Q E D .

Same setup at 30 Hz:

Q E even more D.

 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg479863#msg479863 date=1460095038]





MileHigh

One more time, we are back with trying to deal with your stunted communications skills, laziness, and inability to state something properly.

Ok,we will try the spoon feeding method for the baby that cannot understand simple explanations.

You post two drawings that include scope captures and ask which one is correct.  You are asking about phasing issues were the relationship between the frequency, the resistance, and the inductance is critical for determining the phase, but you don't provide any inductance measurements.

A statement that clearly show's how little you know.
The blue channel is showing the current flow through L1--this is the magnetic field trace--a direct link between the rise,fall,and direction of current to the rise,fall,and polarity change of the magnetic field. Inductance has diddly squat to do with it at these low frequencies ,other than to alter the amplitude on L2,and increase or decrease the amplitude on the L1 current trace.

looks like you may intentionally be hiding the voltage scales so we cannot tell what the waveform amplitudes are

Because the wave form amplitude has nothing to do with the phase relationship between L1s current phase,and L2 EMF. Regardless of what the amplitude may be,the phase relationship between the two will remain the same.

It says, "air or steel laminated core" on the drawings, so which is it?  I am assuming that it is a steel laminated core but you don't say.

It can be either,as with or without the steel laminated core,the phase relationship between L1 and L2 will remain the same.

So the setup is not the same for the two scope captures.

That is absolutely correct.
Now all you have to do,is tell us all which one is correct for standard induction theory.
TK managed to post an answer without any trouble at all with the information provided,as the information provided is all that is needed to make a correct account of which scope shot is showing the correct wave form for the schematic posted.

What does, "oscillating at the resonant frequency of that transformer" mean?

 
You do not need to understand that,nor do i have to explain it.
The information to answer the question correctly is in the schematic with attached scope shot.
One is transformer induction,the other is just there so as you have to choose which is correct.

What does, "the field alignment dose not change" mean?[/b]

As we were talking about the PM,then it means the PMs magnetic field stays aligned with the transformer,and dose not turn,revolve,or move so as the PMs field alternates in regards to the transformer.

You are so crippled in your communications skills it's almost unbelievable.  You can't punch your way out of a wet paper bag when it comes to describing something in a logical fashion with no ambiguities.

And you stop at nothing to avoid answering  a simple question
Which wave form represents the schematic posted with each wave form?--forget about the magnet being in play with one of them--just show which one is standard transformer induction.

You ask a completely loaded question and you at first don't even state that you changed the setup between the first and second scope capture.

Because my original question had only one scope shot,and the question was asked--is this correct for normal transformer induction.
Neither you nor minnie answered the simple question,but TK had no problem with the question,and he gave his answer.
EMJ then said that it was wrong,that L1s current and L2s EMF should be 180* out of phase,and he also gave his reason's for such,and so i added the scope shot of the wave forms showing the phase relationship that EMJ said we should see.
You are asked to answer as to which one represents simple transformer induction,and nothing to do with how the PM setup is operating.

Like usual, when you try to present something just moderately detailed, it's a complete disaster.

What is a complete disaster is you not being able to answer a simple question regarding standard transformer action--and i see minnie has also gone completely silent 

Which scope shot represents what we should see with the scope probes placed as shown on the schematic-which phase angle is correct?-it's that simple.
TK was able to answer it,EMJ was able to answer it--but who is correct?
The only one's here that cant or have not answered ,is the two that think i need to learn basic transformer induction lol--->that be you and minnie.


Brad

There you go MH,TK has carried out an experiment,and has scope shot's to back up mine.
How is it he had no problem replicating my experiment,and yet you claim you dont understand it?.

So all you have to do now,is decide for your self if TK is correct,as he shows the same phase offset as i do in the original question.
Or-is EMJ correct,and TK is overlooking something?.

Then you might try and explain as to how and why one of them is wrong--but i doubt it.


Brad