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Author Topic: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.  (Read 72155 times)

Offline captainpecan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2008, 09:50:15 PM »
@ All:

I really appreciate the way in which all of you are discussing this potentially highly charged subject in a decent, intelligent and respectful manner.  This is how we will succeed.

Bill

Well said sir!

Looking up the definition of "free energy" online, you will also find many definitions. Most still however lean towards the same meaning I think, just worded differently.

"Energy that is actually available to do useful work." taken from
http://schools.look4.net.nz/science/chemistry/index/glossaryF

Or

"The amount of energy available for reactions to occur." taken from
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Free_energy

By definition, free energy is everywhere!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline captainpecan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2008, 10:10:54 PM »
What we all search is more electrical energy out than put in.  Free energy is the answer, it's simple, just not easy.  All that is needed to do is use a small amount of electrical energy to cause an unbalanced system, forcing other forms of energy into the system doing what they need to in order to restore that balance. Now convert those forms of energy that entered the system, into electrical, as well as conserving the original electrical energy we used to start the process.  You end up with more electrical energy out than you put in... Still exactly unity though when you measure all forms of energy... But now you are making use of "available" free energy, without violating any laws of physics!


Offline dean_mcgowan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2008, 10:14:30 PM »
free energy is a by-product of over-unity which may be the function of a device either mechanical or electrical in nature.

I also dispute that an earth battery creates either on the grounds that work is done to create the device, similar but not the same as creating a magnet.

Nuffsaid


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2008, 10:42:53 PM »
free energy is a by-product of over-unity which may be the function of a device either mechanical or electrical in nature.

I also dispute that an earth battery creates either on the grounds that work is done to create the device, similar but not the same as creating a magnet.

Nuffsaid



@ Dean:

I am not sure exactly what you mean by the above.  By definition, work is done to create any device but I am not sure this is what you meant?  In the case of a magnet, there is no work done to create it (by man) if it is the kind occurring naturally. (Loadstone)  In the case of a man-made magnet, yes, there is work done so in this particular case it can be seen as more of a battery which stores the electrical energy put into it that caused the magnetization.

As far as the earth battery goes, I do not see what work is really done to make a simple one?  I mean you just stick the two electrodes into the ground in the proper alignment and....there it is.  If you are speaking of the energy required to produce the electrodes, well sure, I am sure it took some.  But, if this is the standard by which we judge some device then no one will ever have free energy or overunity.  I mean it takes power to manufacture transistors and capacitors and resistors and I am not sure if we should be adding that into the equation.  How would we ever know how much it took to make something?  How would we ever be able to assign a value to it?

Quite possibly I misunderstood your meaning.

Bill


Offline infringer

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2008, 10:51:23 PM »
When I have it you'll know it when you have it I can only hope to know it...

See how that works that is OU and free energy.

-infringer-

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2008, 10:51:23 PM »
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Offline Trino Cularoid

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2008, 11:09:34 PM »
Many good points. I'm partial to a "goal-driven" "definition". Basically, what I want to achieve is more sovereignty and independence for every individual who chooses so (and I don't consider "working harder" such a desirable choice option).

In the long term, that also means, for example, it has to be "renewable" and "sustainable" in the sense that over time the quality of living for all should not degrade (it does if you produce waste that "cannot" be recycled, like nuclear waste, or that doesn't "grow back" fast enough, like oil, or if it changes the environment so that you or future generations need medication or psychological support to live as well). Excluding things we currently cannot manipulate so easily (sun, ice age, state of fear?).

Independence of any "networks" must be guaranteed (be that electrical power, water, air, food, financial, taxes, communication, social) at any time if anybody desires so. In other words, no network is allowed to control people. This doesn't look like it's directly related to technical issues, but often technology and infrastructure is used as a means to control instead of making life simpler and more enjoyable, and to fix it "backwards" by starting with technology is difficult.

I guess looking at the current financial situation gives enough ideas what kind of networks won't benefit everybody. BTW, nothing against networks per se, but I think if technology is developed to allow more independence first, then the step to adapt it for networking is much easier than the other way round.

So if I can combine different partial solutions and achieve above, then I'm fine, I guess. Whether they adhere to establish physical laws or not doesn't matter that much (for example, if I don't have a formula to explain it but can build a machine using some kind of approximation model, that's good enough for a start). If "clean" technology comes from an extraterrestrial source and they don't lock us (individually or collectively) into trade/religious/communication networks, fine.

Hmmm... Not sure if that will lead to a clear-cut definition for FE or OU so soon...  ;D
But if an invention contributes to above then it could be considered to be a part of an FE or OU "device", right?
So it's some kind of indirect definition that allows a lot more freedom and possibilities for the individual parts.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 11:58:53 AM by Trino Cularoid »

Offline captainpecan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2008, 11:38:34 PM »
free energy is a by-product of over-unity which may be the function of a device either mechanical or electrical in nature.

I also dispute that an earth battery creates either on the grounds that work is done to create the device, similar but not the same as creating a magnet.

Nuffsaid

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at either?  "By saying free energy is a by-product of over-unity", are you saying no free energy exists unless there is over-unity? I'm just not following your opinion I guess.

I really don't know what you are trying to say with the last part of your post?  Could you clarify your views please?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2008, 11:38:34 PM »
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Offline dean_mcgowan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2008, 12:24:47 PM »
I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at either?  "By saying free energy is a by-product of over-unity", are you saying no free energy exists unless there is over-unity? I'm just not following your opinion I guess.

I really don't know what you are trying to say with the last part of your post?  Could you clarify your views please?

I interpret it as Overunity being a function of a device whereby free energy is the product of that function.
I suppose its an oversimplification however, i see them as hierarchically related where one is a subnode of the other.

As for the earth battery:

I percieve it as displacment of potentiatly. The materials used to create the earth battery will eventually decompose releasing their free ions which were gathered or rearranged in the process of construction.

Hope that helps illuminate my point.

Cheers,

Dean



 

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2008, 05:57:10 PM »
@ Dean: (Partial quote from Dean below)

"I percieve it as displacment of potentiatly. The materials used to create the earth battery will eventually decompose releasing their free ions which were gathered or rearranged in the process of construction."

I am not sure this is a fair statement.  Everything made by man will decompose, eventually.  Everything.  (even nuclear waste) So again, if this is your "acid test" for an energy device, you will never have any, no matter what.  Every component of any device will be gone in a long enough period of time.

I am not arguing with you.  I think this is one of those subjects that can't really be argued as no one really knows the answer.  It can, however, be discussed and I would be interested in doing so.  Thanks.

Bill

Offline dean_mcgowan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2008, 06:41:24 PM »
@ Dean: (Partial quote from Dean below)

"I percieve it as displacment of potentiatly. The materials used to create the earth battery will eventually decompose releasing their free ions which were gathered or rearranged in the process of construction."

I am not sure this is a fair statement.  Everything made by man will decompose, eventually.  Everything.  (even nuclear waste) So again, if this is your "acid test" for an energy device, you will never have any, no matter what.  Every component of any device will be gone in a long enough period of time.

I am not arguing with you.  I think this is one of those subjects that can't really be argued as no one really knows the answer.  It can, however, be discussed and I would be interested in doing so.  Thanks.

Bill

Ok I agree decompose is not the best word to use there ..
Maybe the point would be that the earth battery would use all the available free ions in the materials and cease to operate over time.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2008, 06:41:24 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2008, 06:57:50 PM »
Ok I agree decompose is not the best word to use there ..
Maybe the point would be that the earth battery would use all the available free ions in the materials and cease to operate over time.


Could not the same thing be said of the silicon in a solar cell?  If given enough time, I am sure they would break down too right?

Just to be clear, with my experiments on the earth battery technology, I have not observed any decomposition or breakdown of any of the materials involved.  Of course, this has only been in use for about 1.5 years so, not a long term observation by any means.  I would think that if some serious decomposition were to occur over a long time, I would see some evidence of it at this point....maybe not.  I dug up my electrodes a little while back and looked at them under my microscope and could see nothing anywhere on the surfaces.  Since this is not a galvanic reaction, I didn't really expect to see any but, to be fair,  I can only guess at what they will look like 10 years from now since I don't really know.

Bill

Offline captainpecan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2008, 08:15:22 PM »
Ok I agree decompose is not the best word to use there ..
Maybe the point would be that the earth battery would use all the available free ions in the materials and cease to operate over time.


What you describe sounds like perpetual motion.  Are you suggesting that free energy = perpetual motion?

I get what your saying for the most part, I kinda view it differently, but hey, that's what we're here for.  I believe what you are saying is that as soon as you get more "electrical energy" out of a device then you put put in, it becomes over-unity. The excess energy, over and above the energy used to make it, becomes the "free energy".  And I think you are saying that in order for it to be free energy, it must be permanent and never "disolve" or not be able to be replenished...

Is that close to your views?


Offline TechStuf

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2008, 08:58:53 PM »

Even a cursory inspection of the "laws" of thermodynamics reveal a level of assumptive arrogance that is typical of what passes for 'wisdom' among mankind.


Take for instance the first 'law' of thermodynamics.  One 'assumes' that energy can neither be created nor destroyed....yet most believe in 'big bang' cosmology.  If energy cannot be created, then our universe was always here, nullifying the big bang theory.


If however, one subcribes to the statements:


"let there be light"

and

"It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom, And by His understanding He stretched out the heavens."


Then one may gain hold of a greater understanding regarding 'Free energy' or getting more out than we put in.....



TS

Offline captainpecan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2008, 09:12:46 PM »
One way to think of it the way I see it.

Picture a bowling ball resting at the top of a steep incline.  At the bottom of the incline is a bunch of glass glasses.  Now if you were to exert a tiny little push with your finger on those glasses, they may move a tiny bit. Nothing great.  But if you were to exert the exact same little push on the bowling ball, it would roll forward, begin rolling down the incline picking up extra energy from gravity, momentum, and whatever else.  Now what happens to those glasses when the bowling ball hits them...  They all shatter!

With this example, the exact same amount of force was put into touching the glasses with your finger, as was put into touching the bowling ball with your finger.  But the energy the bowling ball exerted was much different.

Now, with this example, the extra energy that bowling ball gained on it's way to the glasses was free energy.  "Available" energy that it gained along the way.  You did not ad this energy.  It entered the system by other means.  Although you ended up with much more force hitting the glasses than you put into pushing the bowling ball, it is not over-unity.  If you only figured in the amount of force you exerted, and compared it to the amount of force the bowling ball exerted, then it surely would show over-unity.  But that would be an incorrect way of figuring it.  Over-Unity is measured by all forces entering the equation, compared to all forces leaving the equation.  So if you compare the force that was exerted on the glasses and whatever else it took to make the bowling ball stop, with the force you exerted on the bowling ball, and all the forces of gravity, and momentum, and any other energies that made the bowling ball move...  You end up with exactly Unity!

Free Energy... yes...  Over-Unity.. no...

Perpetual Motion may be possible, due to a system being at exact unity, except for one thing.  The little word "forever" that is added to it's definition.  Perpetual Motion machines must run "forever" without ever stopping.  We have not invented a way to eliminate all forms of friction and resistance, so even if you were to get a device to run for 500yrs before it stopped, it is still going to eventually wear out and stop, thus meaning it is not perpetual motion.  I really wish this term did not get associated with "free energy", as I believe this is one of the reasons that "free energy buffs" get so much ridicule.


Offline captainpecan

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Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2008, 09:21:35 PM »
Take for instance the first 'law' of thermodynamics.  One 'assumes' that energy can neither be created nor destroyed....yet most believe in 'big bang' cosmology.  If energy cannot be created, then our universe was always here, nullifying the big bang theory.

To be honest, I think they will say the universe had "Potential" energy before the big band... lol...  That little word potential energy is kind of the answer to most any energy phenomenon we cant really explain.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Free energy" and "Overunity" We need a definition.
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2008, 09:21:35 PM »

 

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