Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

Poplamp

poplamp

CCTool

CCTool

LEDTVforSale

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

OverUnity Book

overunity principles book

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 81955
  • *Latest: Gwinop

  • *Total Posts: 491690
  • *Total Topics: 14471
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 5
  • *Guests: 89
  • *Total: 94

Facebook

Author Topic: KARPEN PILE  (Read 115323 times)

Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2014, 12:28:11 AM »
Looking forward to hearing results @pomodoro I've said a little more on this subject than I shouldve myself but had no choice in order to be taken seriously.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2014, 12:28:11 AM »

Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2014, 02:29:06 AM »
I owe you gratitude for starting this thread and supporting it @phil and I don't think competition would be a problem as I think every 2lot buster from you,me or others will have its specific duty commercialy,even some seemingly shitty ones with low power.anyway I might run to you for assistance in any case if something good comes along and take you up on your offer to help.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline pomodoro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2014, 04:19:02 AM »
This is my rough plan at examining the pile.

1. Plate  thick 24k gold onto a platinum electrode.  Use non Platinized platinum for the other electrode, dip Pt in aqua regia to roughen surface.
Result - one cell of the Karpen Pile ready for testing when dilute Sulfuric Acid is used as electrolyte.
Expected observation- Very low voltage if any due to similar nobility of metals (reason why Karpenneeded two huge piles to get 1 volt).

2.It is believed cell turns thermal energy into electricity

By shorting electrodes with wire, a current should be able to be measured. Unfortunately this will be very low and any loss in temperature will be miniscule and immesurable with my equipment.

3.Electrode reactions. 
Normally, when 2 dissimilar metals are connected and dipped in an electrolyte, one becomes the anode and the other cathode. For example take  Zinc and Copper in a salt solution.  The less noble of these , Zinc, will become the anode and dissolve more rapidly then it would have naturally. The Copper will become the cathode and be protected. There must always be a reaction at each electrode and at the copper  it is water being reduced to hydrogen.  This is an example of galvanic corrosion and is the basis of Volta's Pile. 
Karpen uses noble electrodes but do any of them react ever so slowly?  If so, then there is nothing special. If not, then we have a problem (or I need more brushing up in electrochemistry). Surprisingly, platinum is not completely inert as it can build a thin oxide layer and also allow hydrogen to dissolve on its surface, however it is still very noble in acid.   We know that water can be turned into its constituents by electrolysis, which requires a fair bit of external energy- but water spontaneously decomposing is unheard of.  Sulfuric acid is also extremely stable and will not spontaneously decompose. So what reaction are occuring and providing the current?
 
4.Tests

So my initial tests will rely on conventional electrochemical techniques. Namely testing each electrode with a potentiostat to determine potentials at which reactions occur and currents involved. These tests are called Tafel plots and you may be interested in googling the term .
If the cell does function, I would like to leave it running a few months and test the acid for gold or platinum. Because of the very low currents, sub milligram quantities of metals corroding can power it for months. This can be calculated by using the formula Q=n(e-)*96500  (faraday's law of electrolysis) Q is coulombs of electricity (amps*seconds).   The result of all this should be to determine if gold or platinum are corroding or not.







   




Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2014, 04:43:48 AM »
What happened to the original plan of my suggested Pt/Ag/H2 experiment @pomodoro? It will give superb currents that will rule out corrosion instantly because in this case the disparity of power between inert nitrogen and active H2 is vast.  Use platinized plat for the Pt/Au/O2 experiment for maximum current.compare under nitrogen.


Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2014, 04:56:51 AM »
Use totaly smooth platinum foil and totaly smooth gold foil in H2SO4 solution,short under air for a few days and chek for pitting in electrodes is another easy method to chek for corrosion in the original karpen setup.chek surfaces under microscope before and after shorting.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2014, 04:56:51 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2014, 05:15:55 AM »
Or simply boil a piece plat foil connected to gold foil for a few hours in H2SO4 solution under air and try hasten corrosion.you won't be able to.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2014, 05:18:19 AM »
@pomodoro, I like your idea of testing the solution for metals, may I suggest that a pile like profitis suggests would only need to be run for a few hours if the test had a sensitivity of ppb, however I think you would also need to scrape the surfaces of the electrodes to test if there was any gold on the platinum, or platinum on the gold.


As to proving it to violate 2LOT, that is step 2.


Violation of 2LOT at very low power production levels is likely impossible as a measurement of temperature depression, however if a plot of ambient heat and power was observed a correlation would be suggested if it is a 2LOT violation. To do this though I think you would have to have the necessary scientific controls as you would need to rule out corrosion rate differentials, thermal gradients, and energy input from extraneous sources, eg RF, vibrations, light.


Therefore given the difficulty of testing for ambient heat driving the cell, what you are doing is the best first step, prove or disprove corrosion at ppb.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2014, 05:18:19 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2014, 05:22:40 AM »
He just has to try hasten corrosion by boiling for a few weeks @phil.he won't be able to.

Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2014, 06:02:16 AM »
@pomodoro I want to challenge you to try and corrode platinum metal in aquaeous sulfuric acid by boiling.you will fail.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2014, 06:17:22 AM »
@profitis, I think it is not helpful to in isolation boil some bits of metal in a solution.


Pomodoro's suggestion was to have a working cell producing output for enough time as to have forced on or both of the metals into solution on the basis of the total current flow, if the cell works on the basis of a chemical battery in any way. You believe he will not detect an significant amount of metal in the solution, or on the opposite electrodes, but you cannot prove that simply by suggesting he boils bits of metal.


@profitis, you may well be right and you may have justification for your beliefs, but we all need to take a step by step journey to settle the matter. Might I suggest we (pomodoro, you, me, and the forum) put forward an experimental designed to test all things that will leave us with a conclusion that Karpen is a 2LOT violator, or is not. I feel confident that the forum just seeing that pomodoro and you are doing the basic research has already raised interest in the subject where before it was pointless to and fro.


As I said a few posts ago, funding for the Karpen will happen at the appropriate time, when a few things have been proved to almost everyone's satisfaction. Replication will no doubt happen if pomodoro can deliver proof that there is no corrosion.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2014, 06:17:22 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2014, 06:25:43 AM »
That's all fine phil but we want to make sure that pomodoro is not going to bring negative news on purpose.how do we know that he's not sarkeizen or mark E? He must simply prove to us that gold foil or platinum foil will corrode in sulfuric acid solution.in this instance it will be the gold that is suppozed to corrode so he must forcefully try to corrode it chopchop and show us. He must heat it to speed up reaction rate.

Offline Philip Hardcastle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2014, 06:44:36 AM »
@profitis, I must say that your comment was not reasonable, firstly it is patently obvious that he is not Sarkeizen, or MarkE, secondly if he were out to do your subject harm he would simply lie about doing the experiment and report detrimental (to your argument) results. If you want to progress you should have respect for pomodoro and others that engage in practical ways. Pomodoro has chosen of his own free will to do some actual experiments and he should be congratulated, but he does not have to do what you tell him to do.


Taking your suggestion on a purely scientific basis it proves nothing other than the chart that pomodoro posted is correct, clearly Pt and Au should not react in the proposed solution, however the chart does not qualify Karpen cell operation over a long period of time, you say it will not corrode in 60 years, or ever, pomodoro proposed to test that by having such a massive number of electrons transfer across the cell such that if it was ion there would be a predictable concentration of Au or Pt, or both in solution.


My view is that the solution will have traces of metals in it, irrespective of the chart data, simply because water erodes glass, plastic, ceramics, metals etc. The issue is to gently operate a Karpen, and to take solution samples periodically, if the concentration of metals in solution does not rise then you have your first test passed. Boiling metals will 100% for sure dissolve metals, I would predict that if you boil in pure water a gm of Au or Pt for 100 years the metal will be completely dissolved, that is not chemistry, that is to me common sense physics.


@pomodoro, what do you think?


Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2014, 09:17:36 AM »
phil I'l bet you my house that platinum or gold will not chemically react with water beyond a few picograms over a period of 100years of boiling in a liter water.the  equilibrium constant for reaction of gold or platinum with H+ ions in sulfuric or phosphoric acid solutions is dead fixed on something like 10-15 and is reached in a matter of seconds in a glass of acid. Platinum and gold do not even combust with O2 at red heat.all I'm asking is for mr pomodoro to accelerate the conditions of alleged corrosion in order to rule it out.I'm not panicking I'm just suspicious of reasons for abandoning the agreed upon test.indeed any karpens commercial value will be sized against a normal slow galvanic corrosion in any case. 

Offline pomodoro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2014, 01:59:48 PM »
Calm down everyone,  first of all I can't rush these experiments even if I tried.  I work, and this is just a lunchtime hobby for me.  I haven't read up all  there is on Karpen and I don't know these other people's names that have been mentioned.

The Ag/Pt experiment seems interesting, but I don't see any correlation to the Karpen pile. Why introduce hydrogen gas? I'm sure you do get a voltage as you say   but that will probably be due to oxidation of hydrogen at one of the electrodes. That's not free energy nor conversion of heat to electricity.

Does Au or Pt corrode in boiling dilute acid? Of course not, not even going to try, but Pt does form an oxide layer and absorbs hydrogen as in the scan below done in 0.5M H2SO4 (from the web). So its not as inert as gold in an electrochemical sense in the same volt range.. 

Truth is, I don't know what is happening and that's what I want to find out.  You may choose to not believe the results, but it wont hurt to pay an electrochemical lab to run the same tests and compare results.

Back to the experiment,  I do have sensitive equipment that should detect ppb gold levels, not sure about platinum, but I can always send the sample out to a lab. I also have a balance that can measure down to 0.01mg, but at such low weights its easy to introduce errors.

So for now I have to successfully plate gold on Pt or another electrode and worry about the rest later....one slow step at a time.  Keep the ideas coming though, some sound great.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline profitis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3878
Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2014, 03:36:01 PM »
What would combust H2 gas under an atmosphere of pure H2 gas mr pomodoro? Purge the system. You will get much more power density in the H2 system and make it easier to rule out chemical corrosion of the Pt(-) anode.we want to get catalytic hydrogen spillover(google) to power the cell Pt/Ag/NaOH or easier Pt/graphite/NaOH permanently.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2014, 03:36:01 PM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: