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Author Topic: KARPEN PILE  (Read 219597 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2014, 01:14:18 PM »
Nor is there any internet info that can show that such spillover is irreversable @sarkeizen.I find that intensely suspicious.you must remember..karpen was also playing with hydrogen cells..open up dogaru and cazacu's referance at the bottom of the wikipedia article on karpen.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2014, 02:10:27 PM »
Don't know about the chloride I have to ask around, but I have 10%Pd on activated carbon.  This stuff is expensive so I don't want to waste it.
 
 Regarding your suggestion of Karpens #2 picture, you propose the upper electrode be half exposed to oxygen , the other submerged in the acid solution or alkali?  Any use of any other chemical such as benzene?  What about stirring?


Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2014, 03:09:18 PM »
Platinized platinum will have to do for our future hydrogen experiment then @pomodoro.if it was platinized by the manufacturer company then it will do fine.if it was platinized by you then alot will depend on your platinizing skills because the platinum black must be totaly adherent and conducting straight onto the underlying foil. Karpen did not use benzene in figure 2. He used one single electrolyte and so did I in my series of tests a few years back.take a solution of sodium hydroxide under air and touch the surface with the bottom end of a PLATINIZED(black) platinum foil.take a aqua regia etched smoothish platinum foil and immerse it totaly under the electrolyte next to your platinized cathode.you will now get perpetual current bursts in the region of 50-100 micro-amps/cm2 if you do this properly. The surface platinized electrode is your cathode(+).the submerged non-platinized foil is your anode(-). this is an oxygen gas concentration cell.the nernst equasion applies.the larger you make your anode and cathode the larger your current.voltage is about 0.1-0.2v

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2014, 03:12:35 PM »
Do not stir the above @pomodoro.we don't want people to say stirring powers the cell.leave the cell dead still once sealed.use platinum wire as your leads out the cell.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 07:31:10 PM by profitis »

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2014, 01:08:08 PM »
Ah OK now I understand. You believe karpen's cell woks because the pt concentrates oxygen from air, due to its nature, and the gold does not, thus a concentration cell is formed.  So, if I have a working model in air and put it under vacuum absolutely no current would flow, correct?

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2014, 01:23:02 PM »
If you put any of the karpens under nitrogen then very negligible current will flow.you have to make sure of no dissolved oxygen if you try this.karpen himself put them under argon and showed grossly negligible current compared to oxygen OR hydrogen atmospheres.catalytic SPILLOVER (google) will only happen with actively chemisorbed (google)gases.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2014, 04:13:01 PM »
I'll devote some time from wed next week constructing one of these cells and test the voltage & current in O2, Ar, and H2 atmospheres. I'm still going to check gold as well, want to check its potential vs pt in deoxygenated dil sulfuric.

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2014, 04:53:07 PM »
Exellent mr pomodoro.we can make history right here right now,the path is clear.we have only one thing to prove: that textbook catalyst spillover can be totaly spontaneously reversable.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2014, 05:24:54 PM »
Mr profitis , for the top electrode of your requested test with hydrogen, the expected EH at 25C is 0-0.059log(pH21/2/[H+]) which satd. with H2 would have p=1, but the distant electrode has p=0, any idea of the potential there before any hydrogen reaches it?

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2014, 06:39:05 PM »
The Ag electrode will have a voltage less than the standard on platinized platinum 0.828V in 1M OH- ion solution mr pomodoro. Probably around 0.2V for the silver electrode directly due to hydrogen galvanic OVERPOTENTIAL on an Ag hydrogen electrode.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #100 on: July 06, 2014, 01:55:30 PM »
Yep, makes sense,  I just found an interesting paper http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j150543a032regarding some H overpotential studies in NaOH, it even used platinized Pt as a reference.  I should be able to get the full article on wednesday, to keep as a reference as my tests progress.

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2014, 03:02:50 PM »
Exellent find.I'm toying with a decision to reveal the chinese papers on overpotentials over here in which they compared smooth platinum to platinized platinum for hydrogen but I don't think I should put it here because it might give tangent ideas away.they also compared smooth gold to black platinum under H2 and got volages in the 0.3-0.5v range on a permanent basis.voltages would fluctuate around +- 0.05v like an ordinary batterys voltage fluctuates depending on the days temperature and in accord with nernst equation.the guys(hardcore research institute scientists) were shocked and wondered out loud if certain other claimed 2lot violators round the globe (in the 80's) were in fact real. 

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #102 on: July 06, 2014, 03:41:04 PM »
Its important to note that there's a line between a concentration cell and a spillover cell eg. I can take two exact same Pt smooth or black foils and put them in the setup and get a strictly nernstian voltage.if we take two different inert metals then it becomes a more spillover-induced voltage for reasons other than concentration and more towards overpotential.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2014, 02:00:33 PM »
Mr profitus, surely simple cells like these would have been tested for abnormal behavior worth exploiting by now?

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2014, 03:41:43 PM »
I was thinking the same thing mr pomodoro.either their research ended in stalemate due to cost/benefit ratio or their research continued,deep underground.perhaps things have been shelved I don't know.catalyst spillover is also a recently discovered phenomena so the connection would have been made very recently or not at all.nontheless we can take credit for this with a few simple experiments.