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## Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: geotron on August 24, 2010, 11:22:32 AM

Title: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on August 24, 2010, 11:22:32 AM
I've been running across the trifilar design for a while now, ever since
first learning of this whole method of generating energy. I've included
the two variations, Daftman's bifilar design following.

Current Theory
----------------
The MPS8099 transistor momentarily conducts when it recieves energy
from the trigger coil, turning the cathode output from the power coil
to recieve a charge from the 9v battery, as well as the trigger coil
from the opposite polarity.  The differing flux pole causes the wheel
to turn by magnetic propulsion.
----------------

If a modification is in order, information is not present or I've
got it - ?  Any changes to the theory are welcome; the entire thing
reposted in its entirety or not.
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: mscoffman on August 24, 2010, 06:08:57 PM
Hello geotron;

of what is going on that would be of interest to one designing
this circuit or wanted to optimise it. I wouldn't call the 'C' a cathode
but a collector, equiv. to the positive side of a switch.

As long as you understand what's going on you can use whatever text
you want to explain it's operations. The extended explanation helps
explains the anomalies associated with this circuit in overunity mode.

Current Theory
----------------
The MPS8099 NPN bipolar power transistor momentarily conducts when
it receives energy from the trigger coil, turning â€˜onâ€™ the collector electrode
from the power coil to ground. The coil will receive a current from the 9vdc
battery, as well as set the trigger coil to the opposite polarity.  The differing
flux pole causes the wheel to turn by magnetic propulsion. This Bedini motor
is called a monopole because the rotor magnets are either attracted to or
repelled by the coil, but not both. The trigger coil is a trade-off set to create
enough voltage and current to trigger the power transistor to saturation, but
not so much as to waste power in the transistorâ€™s base circuit.
----------------
The coil windings are duplexed on the Bedini iron core field coil. This means
they function as a transformer. The windings of the transformer will be 1:1:1 or
1:1 in which all windings will see the same peak-to-peak ac voltage on each,
but each has dc isolation from one another. This means the v. spike is seen
as a bidirectional pulse on the bridge rectifier.
----------------
The differences between the two circuits shown;

The bottom circuit only charges the charge-battery on the peak of
the spike, when the spikes voltage is more positive then the sum of
of the run + charge battery voltages.

The bottom circuit diagram charges a photoflash capacitor whenever a voltage
of the the coil is |above| the instantaneous voltage on the capacitor. The
mechanical gearing ratio of the pulleys then causes the high voltage on the
capacitor to fire into and to charge the battery with a pulse pattern at
specific intervals set independently, but generally longer then, the base
frequency of the Bedini driver coil.
---------------

Note: this the conventional explanation of the base operation of the circuit
but needs to be 'extended' for overunity energy application.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on August 25, 2010, 09:06:10 AM
Summary of the current theory as I'm beginning to understand it -

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) As a magnet on the wheel approaches the coils, the flux is transduced
into electrical current, charging the capacitor.

2) Once a threshold of flux is reached by the proximity of the magnet
to the coils, enough energy is being generated in the trigger coil that
it will switch on the transistor, connecting the battery onto both the
power coil and the trigger coil.

3) The flow from the battery travels through the power coil, energizing
all three coils; behaving as a transformer.  While this occurs, the
energy from the 9v battery is magnified through the transistor and is
directed into the trigger coil from the opposite direction as it is
flowing through the power coil.

4) The surge of energy into the trigger coil from the transistor
reverses the polarity of all three coils, and the wheel magnet is
propelled away, increasing the speed of the device while the 1n914
diode acts as a gate valve.

5) While the transistor remains in a positive state, it is fed through
its base with the same magnified battery power as the trigger coil until
the magnet is at a far enough distance that it weakens the current
reaching it until the battery is finally disconnected.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Could it be that as the magnetic fields collapse at each stage and
provide surges of bEMF, it may be collected in additional capacitors
on each battery?

Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on August 26, 2010, 10:57:20 AM
I've gone through a few different versions of how to properly
collect the flow of back-emf into the battery. The following diagram
will show what I ended up with - fairly straightfoward if I'm
understanding it correctly.

The second 9v battery is shown to collect foward-emf, so I'm thinking
if another rectifier and capacitor were connected in the same fashion
to the anode side only facing in the opposite direction, it would
serve the purpose of even further saturating the battery with energy
from the secondary coil.

I'm not fully certain, but couldn't the 1st 9v battery be sustained
from discharging by this method utilizing both the power and trigger
coil's bEMF energy, launching the overunity effect?
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 27, 2010, 12:47:15 AM
I've gone through a few different versions of how to properly
collect the flow of back-emf into the battery. The following diagram
will show what I ended up with - fairly straightfoward if I'm
understanding it correctly.

The second 9v battery is shown to collect foward-emf, so I'm thinking
if another rectifier and capacitor were connected in the same fashion
to the anode side only facing in the opposite direction, it would
serve the purpose of even further saturating the battery with energy
from the secondary coil.

I'm not fully certain, but couldn't the 1st 9v battery be sustained
from discharging by this method utilizing both the power and trigger
coil's bEMF energy, launching the overunity effect?

I tried what you depict on your graph a while ago and did not get the results I wanted.
It is because it is needed a sudden spark with the aid of a capacitor in order for the battery to accept charging while doing work.

Jesus
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on August 27, 2010, 08:16:50 AM
I'm guessing that the energy released from the coil as bEMF is
mostly voltage then, and the capacitor is used to condense it into
having a greater current?

My new diagram is shown below with the addition of a capacitor,
although I'm uncertain as to how to determine the correct value
that it would have to be.  My best guess would be to add a lot
of resistance and then begin slowly lifting it while metering
the result on the capacitor.
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 28, 2010, 02:40:15 AM

Jesus

Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on August 28, 2010, 04:38:46 AM
Here I've drawn another version - the zener diode facing towards
the capacitor.  Correct?

The reason I ask is, my understanding of diodes is not excellent and
at first thought it seems as though gapping over a blocking diode from a
capacitor would burn it out, although having it face the other direction
wouldn't make a whole lot of sense would it?

Using the back-EMF to supplement the batteries aside, I'm curious about
the capability of the N-Pole Motor Design herein to sustain the batteries
and work as an overunity device.  There are a few discussions going
around concerning difficulties being encountered in pursuit of building
units able to supply this effect.

I truly believe that it is possible to generate energy with this device,
although before spending copious amounts of resources in pursuit of
building it, solid facts must be known.

Previously my endeavors were to build a Gray's Tube Circuit in order
to power a Newman's coil motor, which is now set in storage until I'm
able to rebuild it in the correct fashion.

In the meantime, this N-Pole Motor is what my attention has grabbed
hold on, as it seems like a device worthy of being scaled to massive
proportions; able to supply clean energy for fueling cars, homes,
production of food, etc.
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 28, 2010, 06:12:46 AM
The zener diode must be the one that is after the capacitor and the cathode or the bar pointing to the battery.

Both capacitor point in the same direction for the electricity to flow.
The first one fills the capacitor and blocks the electricity not to go back to the coil.
When the capacitor is full, the zener activates letting the electricity to flow to the battery.

Remember, both diodes point in direction to the battery.

Jesus
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on August 28, 2010, 09:00:14 AM
The silicon P-N junction is only activated when a potential of
16v is directed into it from the correct side, then the entire
current is allowed to soak into the 9v battery with an added
force great enough to overcome the opposing potential and then
becomes added to the storage medium. Impressive!

I've been using a RadioShack analog multimeter for a while now
as my first electronics instrument of such a type, and have
found that when using it to determine the flow of a diode, it
only shows continiuty when the (+) color lead is connected to
its cathode output side.

This has given me a lot of confusion, and I'll be repositioning
them into the correct color-polarity from now on.
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: mscoffman on August 28, 2010, 05:50:19 PM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Could it be that as the magnetic fields collapse at each stage and
provide surges of bEMF, it may be collected in additional capacitors
on each battery?

Please recognize that a single inductor has two terminals and in
the Bedini Motor one terminal is pinned at 12Vdc with low
impedance. So the the other terminal is going to go massively
plus and then the BEMF is going to take that back down -  not
massively minus voltage. So it's one terminal relative to the other.
Just as the voltage trace shows. If the 200VDC+ was pinned lower
somehow the BEMF might even take the voltage into negative territory

The AB secondary coil of the other hand seeks it own DC level so the
BEMF will actually be negative on it. The bridge rectifier will take care of that.

The definition of an inductor is: "it doesn't want current through it to change"
so when it starts, it has zero current and slowly builds up (LR time-constant).
Until by-george it is going over the 12 Volts orginally supplied! Then the
transistor cuts off as the magnet starts moving away from the pole and
the current now begins to collapse flowing the other direction pulling down
from the spike's high voltage. If never really goes negative due to the DC
bias from the transistor.

---

Note:
Your non-motor circuits don't show the coil tied to (+) but to battery (-)
so your diode circuit is equivalent to an emitter coupled transistor circuit.
You are going to need to take that into account if you "motorize" the switch.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on August 30, 2010, 04:15:16 AM
mscoffman,
The concepts you're bringing across aren't wholly understandable to
me at this point, although I thank you for your help.  Eventually
when my knowledge reaches a certain point I'll likely have a more
valuable response; in the meantime though I think I'm able to grasp
the essence of what you're getting at, except for when you refer in
your note to an 'emitter coupled transistor circuit' - I'm not really
able to picture such a thing in my mind.

I've gone ahead and transformed my printout of Daftman's bifilar
motor diagram into a schematic form, and will be studying it a bit
as I have done with the one drawn by Bedini.

Due to my previous confusion with using my radioshk meter to help
explain which direction energy flows through a diode VS their outter
markings, it may be that I've thrown in an error or two.  My
interpretation of how the coils are labeled with "ST" & "SR"
indicated to me that these mark the beginning of the wind, so this
is how I have drawn it -

Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 30, 2010, 07:32:15 PM
@geotron

There is a mistake on the storage battery diode direction. The cathode goes to the positive and is pointing away.

Also there is a mistake on the transistor diode. The cathode should point to the base and is pointing away.

Jesus
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: mscoffman on August 31, 2010, 12:13:31 AM
@geotron

There is a mistake on the storage battery diode direction. The cathode goes to the positive and is pointing away.

Also there is a mistake on the transistor diode. The cathode should point to the base and is pointing away.

Jesus

Agree.

---

a) the diode attached to the base is to *keep* the trigger coil from driving
the base to a negative voltage. This is because electron "charge storage"
will build up on the base's (parasitic) capacitance. That would make the
transistor slow down when switching. The line on the diode is the line
the arrrow points to in the symbol. It means positive current flows the
way of the arrow. DVM Ohmeter leads are sometimes reversed polarity
because of an age-old convention. Use a battery powered LED to be

b) The little waveform on the first schematic is what the collector voltage
looks like on a scope. There is no negative voltage so because the free
end of the battery is stacked up -  only when the spike goes above
24VDC will the "charge" battery be active. (again only on the AB coil
connection is there any negative voltage) Because a transformer
does not set DC bias or DC base voltage - a transformer only speaks AC
(except for DC saturation current flowing through it which we are not
using here) What you have to see is that there is no negative voltage
available to the "charge" battery. So it's really the positive spike (both
up and back down) that the "charge" battery intercepts. The charge
battery can't supply any power through it's diode.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on September 01, 2010, 02:11:39 AM
I thought those might have been pointing the wrong direction.

When I was working on setting up my Gray's Tube, getting the
diode to function properly by blocking the high voltage from
escaping from the tube with a 30kv diode, I first hooked it up
in the standard direction - the stripe on the side pointing
into the tube and it didn't block anything.  There were massive
electrical discharges inside gapping over the electrodes, passing
through the diode and disrupting things on the other side.

Only when I reconnected the diode to with the strip facing opposite
the direction into the tube did it block the high voltage from
escaping.  This in addition with my non-standard multimeter has
caused me much grief in confusion.

Currently I'm in the process of building a coil-winding jig with the
use of a sewing machine motor - plenty to work on at this point.
Once it starts shaping up I'll begin posting some information on it,
but for now let me see if I've got any edge on the bifilar coil motor.

---------

1) Similar to how the transistor is used in trifilar version, the
flux generated on the trigger coil is directed into the base, although
this time through a series of a resistor and a potentiometer (which
has me guessing).

2) The path is then connected between the (+)Primary through the
start of the power coil and into the 1N4007.  This lights up the
neon bulb and then continues into the (-)Primary, the Trigger Coil
from the opposite polarity as it is being charged by the magnet,
the 1N4001 into the Base, and the Emitter.

This is the extent of my understanding thus far.  It is substantially
different to the point where I'm getting a bit confused.  It seems
as though with the (+)Primary leading into the base through the Neon
it would permanently keep the transistor in an 'on' position.
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 01, 2010, 02:30:39 AM
The most used position for the neon bulb and the one that always has worked for me is the one on the graph.

Jesus
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on September 03, 2010, 03:27:50 AM
It seems the time has come to begin obtaining suitable parts to
put this thing together, so I've been searching around for ferrite
rods and some other things - batteries as well.  I'll be going with
the 450-turn coil(s).

My concern at this point is in regards to the types of battery
that the Bedini Motor is capable of using. Below I've gathered
together a selection of the ones I'm currently thinking might
possibly work; alternatives to expensive lead-acid.

...  ?

Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on September 03, 2010, 12:40:28 PM
Effectively doubling the ratio of coil matter per unit of flux charge
is looking to be my foward direction.  Opposing connections on the
windings, each with their own 600V recovery system.
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 03, 2010, 07:23:12 PM
That is a goo idea!
But there seems to be a problem with this system you should study before spending lots of money and time.
The batteries get kind of damaged after just a few charges.
They show what is called a ghost voltage. There is voltage but not amperage strenght if it is called that way.

You install the batteires with full voltage on a device and as soon the device is turned on, consumes the whole charge of the batteries in seconds.

Maybe I am wrong though. Just check it.

Jesus
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on September 04, 2010, 05:28:40 AM
Do you mean to say that ghost voltage is a problem with using the
types of batteries I've shown above ? or that it has to do with
the double-coil arrangment ? or the whole Bedini system in general?

I would be confused though if it turned out that a lot of people
had built his device and had this problem, as previously it has
seemed to me that Bedini systems were more on the conservative side
of Overunity - extensively researched as a viable technology.

???
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 04, 2010, 02:13:13 PM
Search information on conditioning the battery with the bedini charger or something on the like.

I have heard that the batteries need to be discharged and charged several times in order to cure the ghost voltage.

Note:
Maybe they do not call it ghost voltage. But it is sure that a long battery conditioning by charging and discharging is needed.

Jesus
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: e2matrix on September 04, 2010, 08:45:39 PM
It seems the time has come to begin obtaining suitable parts to
put this thing together, so I've been searching around for ferrite
rods and some other things - batteries as well.  I'll be going with
the 450-turn coil(s).

My concern at this point is in regards to the types of battery
that the Bedini Motor is capable of using. Below I've gathered
together a selection of the ones I'm currently thinking might
possibly work; alternatives to expensive lead-acid.

...  ?

May I suggest you avoid Lithium Ion and for sure don't use AA cells labeled Lithium (which are not rechargeable).  Lithium Ion batteries like to explode and overheat and are very picky about being charged safely.  NiCD or NiMH are fairly rugged and can take a lot of abuse but lead acid may be the best.  There are some new Lithium technologies that can take more abuse but they aren't cheap and are largely unknown quantities when dealing with RE or alternate energy charging.
Title: Re: N-Pole Motor Trifilar Design
Post by: geotron on September 05, 2010, 12:53:16 PM
There doesn't seem to be anything definite indicating to me yet
what size guage(s) of magnet wire to use.  Currently I'm under
the impression that all three may be the same size.

I've included a bit of math operating under this principle to
determine the resulting dimensions of the coil.  With a few other
items I'll be casting three ceramic magnets into the wheel shape,
and drilling out holes to bolt on a wheel bearing.

Calculations
-------------------------
The thickness of a 25g strand of wire is around .45mm

Wrapped on a length of 1.75in of core material, there is
enough room for 98.78 winds.  In order to obtain enough
winds to match the specification on the N-Pole Motor, it
will require a bobbin with endpieces wide enough to
contain a 6.15mm layer of trifilar coil winds.

450 / 32.927 = 13.67 layers

.45 * 13.67 = 6.15 mm

98.78         32.927 turns
----------- = -------------
3 strands       1.75in

450 / ( 98.78 ) = 4.55 layers

.45mm * 4.55 = 2.04mm

X winds 25g
-------------
1.75in                   44.45
------- =  98.78 winds 25g
25g = .45mm           .45 mm

1.75in =  1in
------   ------
x     25.4mm

1x / 1.75 = 25.4

25.4 * 1.75 = 1x

x = 44.45 mm