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Author Topic: Core saturation and Lenz.  (Read 20044 times)

Offline broli

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2010, 03:35:03 AM »
I agree that the gain to the proposed flywheel during the approach would be the same as the loss at the accelerated exit, however something has changed at TDC. The core does not decrease in magnetic field as the magnet exits and therefore has a greater attraction during the exit phase.

This would increase the exit losses, and with 2x gearing there should be 2x the additional loss.

Even at equal speed, you have shown additional mechanical loss on exit. If the core was not energized, then the exit loss should be only little over approach gain.

I have made elliptical gears for other magnetic projects and I must say they are difficult. The layout alone in CAD can take an entire day for a single gear set. I can then mill them out of Lexan sheet in a few minutes.

Yes I know about the exit loss. But you believe this loss gets greater at greater speeds. This is where we don't agree. Even if we approach the core veeery slowly and leave from TDC at lightning speed. The mechanical gain and losses remain equal if we did the same experiment with any combination of speeds. It's because the force acted over the same distance irregardless of the speed. Does that make sense?

I dont understand it but it sound like you do so Im going to tell you something
first  Tesla is in the Bible revelation second he screwed us with ac and dc  power now I know what everyone thinks im a idiot but listen photon power  comes from 144,000 it cannot be measured in conventional volt metters  or electric metters the reason theres no gaps so tesla created the gaps  so jp morgan could sell the power to enslave the world now some are  going to say its not teslas fault blame is not the point the point is  the open loop between the magnets releases the frequency to the air that  frequency is the ineffeciency so tesla knew the only way to release all  the energy at once was to open the circuit the points which creates the  spark so thats the wrong way now im not a engeneer but if you have a  way to create the spark constant with no gaps thats the key and if you  scientist figure out the frequency to offset the gaps in the 60hz we  dont pay no one so it should be like this 60/144,000= frequency gaps the  metter reads
or 60x144,000= frequency gaps
so with that we  should be able to make a crystal or series of crystals to ballance our  power to perfect from what tesla screwed the world with. turn the  economy and finish my unimited earth battery conversion tesla took to  his grave now if you know how to build the circuit i posted the video  the battery is easy it went well over 5 miles
and next im going to  build a martha stuart generator with vinegar milk grape honey molases  =potasium salt and water thats the formula how it goes together good  luck im going to a buffet in the morning if you beat me congrats.its  about turning our economy from these dictators.

 Wrong thread?
 

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2010, 03:35:03 AM »

Offline cletushowell

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2010, 05:01:10 AM »
im not very good at expalining things so if you dont understand please dont get mad just ask a different way
what im saying is there is loops of inifinty there is two loops one of three and one of five
I dont know how to get out of the loops but I know how to complete the loops so if you have a magnet motor
its going to get stuck on one spot you can either discharge this spot with a frequency to match the magnet or
you can absorb the frequency and magnify it to the other side by three loops but magnets are all different strength so its hard to perfect unless your using elctromagnets and even electro magnets are shit because iron is not the same so you need optics so you have to create the magnetic poles of frequency with no iron like how I warp the light bulb but using optics
compensate the lost frequency of the design with frequency conversion from other frequencies  exampel if your using a light pulse your going to have a frequency loss of the light spectrum but if we convert the frequency above the spectrum were not using to equal the loss were losing to the air then we have a complete loop so were essential taking the exray frequency and spliting it into light rays and equaling the lost energy so it never stops the lost energy goes to the air we take that energy back. I hope some one understands.

Offline lumen

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2010, 06:03:41 AM »
Yes I know about the exit loss. But you believe this loss gets greater at greater speeds. This is where we don't agree. Even if we approach the core veeery slowly and leave from TDC at lightning speed. The mechanical gain and losses remain equal if we did the same experiment with any combination of speeds. It's because the force acted over the same distance irregardless of the speed. Does that make sense?
 
 Wrong thread?

Well, that's not exactly what I'm saying and I agree that force x distance is the work regardless of speed, but lets go back to just the magnet on a wheel rotating by the coil as in your example.

As the magnet approaches the coil core, and is about 45 degrees from TDC, the magnet aligns some domains in the core and the core starts to become attractive. This attraction is in the approaching direction and applies a gain to the rotation direction.

At the same 45 degree point after TDC, during the exit phase, the core is still fully saturated from the coil current and provides additional attraction to the magnet that did not exist on the approach side. This additional attraction is working against the rotation direction and applies as loss to the rotating direction.

There would then be greater mechanical loss on the exit after TDC where the core remains saturated for a longer time than on the approach. The distance and speed have not changed, but the force did.  Do you agree this would be true?




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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2010, 06:03:41 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2010, 12:03:45 PM »
Well, that's not exactly what I'm saying and I agree that force x distance is the work regardless of speed, but lets go back to just the magnet on a wheel rotating by the coil as in your example.

As the magnet approaches the coil core, and is about 45 degrees from TDC, the magnet aligns some domains in the core and the core starts to become attractive. This attraction is in the approaching direction and applies a gain to the rotation direction.

At the same 45 degree point after TDC, during the exit phase, the core is still fully saturated from the coil current and provides additional attraction to the magnet that did not exist on the approach side. This additional attraction is working against the rotation direction and applies as loss to the rotating direction.

There would then be greater mechanical loss on the exit after TDC where the core remains saturated for a longer time than on the approach. The distance and speed have not changed, but the force did.  Do you agree this would be true?

yes completely. This is what the animated presentation shows, in fact there I don't even consider the attraction on approach which would lower the mechanical loss in my favor. But I assume you are going to try to make a point by having a mutual understanding first, so please go on.

Offline lumen

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2010, 04:31:56 PM »
yes completely. This is what the animated presentation shows, in fact there I don't even consider the attraction on approach which would lower the mechanical loss in my favor. But I assume you are going to try to make a point by having a mutual understanding first, so please go on.

In trying to find a method to return as much electrical energy as possible, we would need a way to reduce joule heating which is the major loss.
Because saturation current on exit is a required condition, the only way to reduce this is to reduce the time, but because there is a limit on rotation speed due to the recovery time of the coil as it collapses with larger inductance, electrical output gain would increase if the system controlled the approach and exit speeds.

Because accelerating and decelerating a mass also takes energy, a workable method would be to use elliptical gearing so the deceleration recovers energy that is again used to accelerate the object.

At this point you can now see the problem. Essentially, there would be two different gear ratios, geared 1x on the approach and say 2x on the exit side. Now because the exit side has 2x the leverage on the mechanical portion of the device. This means you would also have 2x the mechanical losses compared to the 1x mechanical gain on the approach side.

Now because we have 2x mechanical loss but reduced the joule heating time by 1/2, does this increase the actual usable output? If so , then a 5x ratio would be better, because you would lose 5x mechanical losses but joule heating time would be 1/5 also.

This is only a concept to overcome the hidden factors that seem to make these devices not function as calculated.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2010, 04:31:56 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2010, 07:37:33 PM »
Yes I understood the concept from your earlier post. And I think I understand what you mean by losses. When we want to increase the speed of the magnet at TDC and beyond we need energy to accelerate it. This energy comes from the motor or a fly wheel who sees a counter torque. But then the energy we have used to accelerate is pushed back into the system when the gears cause the speed of the magnet to decrease back, the fly wheel will get a forward torque from this. So that part is conserved. This I agree with.
But how the magnet eats x times more energy I don't agree with.  We only end up with the net energy loss from the attraction of the magnet and core. Which is the same irregardless of speed.

Offline lumen

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2010, 11:22:38 PM »
Yes I understood the concept from your earlier post. And I think I understand what you mean by losses. When we want to increase the speed of the magnet at TDC and beyond we need energy to accelerate it. This energy comes from the motor or a fly wheel who sees a counter torque. But then the energy we have used to accelerate is pushed back into the system when the gears cause the speed of the magnet to decrease back, the fly wheel will get a forward torque from this. So that part is conserved. This I agree with.
But how the magnet eats x times more energy I don't agree with.  We only end up with the net energy loss from the attraction of the magnet and core. Which is the same irregardless of speed.

Then if we can calculate that the magnet on exit from TDC would have the same mechanical loss, then there is only the reduction in joule heating time.

I understand there is no additional loss if the exit from TDC was at 2x the approach speed because it would exit the area in 1/2 the time even while the drag on the mechanical system was 2x. So in the end 2 x .5 is still 1. (this assumes no additional loss with additional mechanical components)

So in the end with a momentum conserving mechanical accelerator, there will only be a decrease in joule heating from the reduction in exit time.

The setup you show would be easy to test. Have you done any testing to see if the values you used for the inductor fall within realistic values? Like the 1000 to 1 change in inductance from saturation?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 11:46:35 PM by lumen »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2010, 11:22:38 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2010, 11:58:11 PM »
The setup you show would be easy to test. Have you done any testing to see if the values you used for the inductor fall within realistic values? Like the 1000 to 1 change in inductance from saturation?

To be blunt, no. I have based all the numbers on what I gathered from the Internet. I'm still planning on buying and LRC meter to do what you suggested, but in my current bum state I won't go far. So I'll pick it up when I have some finance I hope before the world ends.

This was also part of that research:
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9345.0

Offline cletushowell

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2010, 07:48:07 AM »
Ill give you my Advice send me your
math ill compute it through the axis of infinity
make shure it right before you start beings I have string theory
and am the first to the math to double the speed of light
so dont know how to slow time but i can speed it up
you need a v shape create a black hole and water
or enough energy to warp like einstien
v hull philidelphia
noahs ark
and time traveler video
the water and pipe to earth battery


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2010, 07:48:07 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2010, 12:48:52 PM »
Ill give you my Advice send me your
math ill compute it through the axis of infinity
make shure it right before you start beings I have string theory
and am the first to the math to double the speed of light
so dont know how to slow time but i can speed it up
you need a v shape create a black hole and water
or enough energy to warp like einstien
v hull philidelphia
noahs ark
and time traveler video
the water and pipe to earth battery

What you said makes completely no sense to me. If I didn't know any better I'd say you're a skeptic joker trying to make a point on how stupid OU people are by saying random incoherent things and making people believe. Just my instinct  ;) .

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2010, 01:22:51 PM »
Ill give you my Advice send me your
math ill compute it through the axis of infinity
make shure it right before you start beings I have string theory
and am the first to the math to double the speed of light
so dont know how to slow time but i can speed it up
you need a v shape create a black hole and water
or enough energy to warp like einstien
v hull philidelphia
noahs ark
and time traveler video
the water and pipe to earth battery

Isn't there a way to make clowns such as the one who wrote the above stay away from the discussions?

@broli, this is a very interesting idea and I agree with the previous participants that it appears very much similar to what Steorn do, unless I'm missing something. It would be interesting to hear what @Omega_0 has to say about it as the first one who has independently reproduced Steron's eOrbo overunity claim.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2010, 01:22:51 PM »
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Offline cletushowell

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2010, 04:19:20 PM »
I said it was my advice odviously you didnt take me serious
i said i have string theory
I have the math axis if infinity so if you give me your math
I can calulate it to see if its right or do it yourself
12 144,000 12,000
every number reduces to 1-12 and goes thru 144,000
so I eliminated the decimals solved the necerending 2.333
7/3 =2.3333 wrong
7x144,000 = 1008000/3 336000
a perfect number so you can now see you made a mistake
have a good day

Offline lumen

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2010, 04:51:03 PM »
Gee,
So we should solve all our calculations based on religious beliefs from our perceived reality instead of directly from the perceived reality we believe we are in?
Ok, I finally see it! (now go away)

Offline cletushowell

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2010, 06:02:42 PM »
No try to do it your way you cant so its not a religious
beleif its a fact I solved the math
but you must have gad the answer already
of the 2.333 so you know how to make teslas earth quake
then i guess were even   

 

Offline lumen

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Re: Core saturation and Lenz.
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2010, 06:09:29 AM »
Well, I did a test on the amount of inductance change and I was able to get the coil of 450mH to change down to .04mH when saturated by a PM. This shows that a change of 1000 to 1 is possible.
Another interesting effect I noticed during the test was, if the core was only partially saturated using tiny magnets to a point where the inductance read about 15mH then, rotating the setup in the earths field would show a change in inductance of about 1mH.
The coil was toroidal, so I think the next step would be to wind a simple coil using the same ribbon core material and test it again, and also test the increase in pull to the magnet when the coil is energized.
I'm thinking this setup would provide some additional information that will not show up using a toroidal coil.


 

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