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Author Topic: "g" paradox...  (Read 17117 times)

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 07:57:42 PM »
       Hi Jim!
It's a good idea to take a concentrating look at Milkovic's site.

I had an e-mail connection with him,some years ago and everytime he has some news,I receive an announcement.

 You can discover that the gravity fall is so complex,thinking of a falling stick,chimney,pendulum,solid state,elastic bodies ....

 Regarding Maschinen Tractate ( your MT 25 first choice...),I will open a new topic.

   All the Best! / Alex

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 07:57:42 PM »

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 09:44:41 PM »

    Hi Jim !

 I visited  the 1-143 drawings from Maschinen Tractate .

 About your comment regarding MT25,first question is :really can work the mass-driver?Had you made an easy experiment(not on the paper,or on the screen..) ?

 Usually,the people imagine an obsessive "wheel",some asymmetric "arabesque" rough outlines,representations that you can see on persian carpets or on the oriental temple walls...this is statics.

  If you reduce these  attempts to the minimum lines (left side-fulcrum-right side),you discover a simple ...weighting equivalent "machine" ,with a tiny swinging motion about the horizontal line,nothing more.

 Gravity dynamics is something different,this implies a certain fall,firstly : an Atwood machine with a heavy pulley,can tell you more... 
 In my opinion,gravity dynamics is something different,in the Archimedes line.

 Sorry,but this forum has no experimental builders

    All the Best! / Alex 

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2009, 01:53:28 AM »

     Hi Jim !
 It seems that,you are fascinated about MT 25...so I wish you success.You know that actions speak louder than words.The model is not so difficult,so if you lay your bike on ground,you can use a "free" wheel, as a support for the arrangement of MT25.

      All the Best! / Alex

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2009, 01:53:28 AM »
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Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2009, 11:29:41 PM »

     Hi Jim !

 Falling stick,falling chimney and others ,all are "Whipp effects".

 You can read a lot of things about this phenomena,on net,if you type the appropiate words.

 More interesting is the use of this effect , in the animal world.

     All the Best! / Alex

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 07:26:17 AM »

    Hi Jim !

As usually,somebody proposes a topic ("g" paradox...),and the people moves it elsewhere...

Regarding Bessler's MT25,we have no good news:it doesn't work,you know.

If you have a proposal about it, a certain change on the line of the same design,try to make it in an elementary manner,so to express your thought.
Better is to test it...

    All the Best! / Alex

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 07:26:17 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2009, 08:12:38 AM »
great topic. i love puzzles that make you use your mind..


first we must remember that gravity is an accellerating force, not a constant velocity.
there is a slight time delay between the time the stick begins to move, and the moment of inertia of the (non attached) objects resting on top of said stick is overcome. Thus the stick has a head start before the experiment begins. add in leverage / inbalanced center of mass, and the result is what we see in the experiments. notice that at the approximate center of mass, both stick and object are moving at almost the same rate, and towards the fixed end of the stick, the objects never leave the stick at all.






With milkovic's pendulum drive - this is a completely different thing all-together.  The free rolling ball converts most of its energy into kenetic impact against the motionless cart.

When the ball is attached to the pendulum: momentum is conserved, except for the moment when the force on the ball changes direction. during this moment, the force is straight ahead pushing the cart forward. Momentum is still conserved.
This is exactly how his 'water-pump' functions.
no doubt that a pendulum is one of the most efficient devices for converting potential to kenetic energy and back again.
take for example a BOX on a RAMP...
compare this now to a ROLLER SKATE on the SAME RAMP..
you will see that the roller skate is much more efficient at rolling down the ramp. this is no different.

What these two 'problems' have in common, is that people often fail to look at all the factors involved. and even at times intentionally leave out factors that their audience deserves to know about.
While these things may seem strange when presented behind a fogcover, they are certainly not a 'paradox' by any definition of the word.

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2009, 10:28:48 PM »

...as I see the things,is more related to MT18,than to MT25.

   "g " paradox (as the people gives the name on net) is interesting because introduces the "whip" effect:an elastic falling stick,as a new lab-demo...

   On net,you can find something alike with the label "falling chain".

   For PM,this phenomenon is useful to take into account for some designs...

    All the Best! / Alex

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2009, 10:28:48 PM »
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Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2010, 06:40:56 AM »

.....can be seen  as a possible paradox (something that seems absurd,but may be true) ,or as a real effect of  mass distribution ,when the free falling object is attached to a hinge.

     Let's see again the stick (continuous,rigid mass) and the coins ( disperse,bending mass),in a hinged free fall at :   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFJPQLhWPvA

     If the stick and the coins have the same mass,and repeating the test,we get the same result/effect ,we have an interesting case,maybe useful for the topic of this forum.

     Anyway,all experiments of PM (on paper or in reality ),have as a "leitmotiv" ,the left-right replacement,change of distribution of the same mass...

       All the best! / Alex

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2010, 02:02:11 AM »

 .....can be a simple and apparently lab-demo "trick" (unequally masses and differently starting point/height).

      But it can be also,a convincing,simple fact of reality,if we repeat the Galileo's easy experiment,this time with two equally,identically masses that fall from the same elevation,starting in the same moment:

        -mass A falls vertically,on a straight line.

        -mass B falls on a different trajectory...let's say as a free falling inverted pendulum.

     If there is a time (velocity,momentum...) difference,we have an "entrance" to think about the next step(s)...

        All the best! / Alex

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2010, 02:02:11 AM »
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Offline Dr

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 04:43:48 AM »
HI Alex: very nice demonstration, I also read your thoughts about the long arm short arm pendulum, and i must say I think you are right on the money. If a gravity wheel is to work, the weights must not move a great deal... long arm of a horizontal pendulum falling from around 2:45 position and swinging over to the 9:00 O clock position, it is there when CF has released some of its grip that the shift must occurr.

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2010, 12:43:29 PM »
    Hi Dr !
 If you take a look on net,regarding /"g" paradox/Falling chimney/Falling stick/...so diverse denominations ,about the same simple "unknown"  fact...you can discover that,we need to carry simple tests,nothing more.

 Some steps you can find at "Gravity wheel of Mikhail Dmitriyev" topic (see May 18-19 ,comments).

 Again,Mikhail has no solution,but interesting simple short experiments about pendular fall (pendulum,counterweighted pendulum:fixed arm and variable arm ).

 In my opinion,the real answer for the old PM problem,is "around" these easy,simple experiments...
...not a "small " wheel,but a "fit size " of a first degree lever(fixed arm+variable arm).

       All the best! / Alex

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2010, 12:43:29 PM »
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Offline Dr

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2010, 05:09:49 PM »
Good Morning Alex: Your last two sentences, I agree completely, the solution to a gravity wheel will not be found on a small size wheel.  A weight falling near the rim of the wheel will take longer to fall than a weight in free fall straight down!  I believe this is why Besslers first wheel was 6.5 ft, in diameter, and every wheel thereafter was even larger. Also you notice he slowed them d

o  wn? First wheel 60+ second wheel 50 third and fourth 26 under no load. Why? Perhaps to give the weight more time to shift!

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2010, 07:23:38 PM »
       Hi Dr !

  We can understand so easy the importance of the size ...if we experience a vertical jump down (1meter...2m...3m.....5m....).

  We can notice a similar case,with an unbalanced big size lever,free to topple down :here we have an initial torque differece,increasing alike an "avalanche process".

  Simply,it's an elementary "butterfly effect":a small difference (initial condition) of a dynamic system,may produce a large variation (final condition),in a long time behaviour.

  To replay this "game",we need to feedback this small difference.

  No free fall,no  "free" power...

     All the best! / Alex

Offline Dr

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2010, 10:31:35 PM »
Hi Alex: When you say  " no free fall, no free energy" what exactly do you mean?  How do you propose to capture the energy of a free falling weight and recycle it? I know from my own experiments of smashing lead balls there is great power in a free falling object, but how to use it without destroying your wheel, is the 24,000$ question?

Offline iacob alex

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Re: "g" paradox...
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 12:00:22 AM »

    Hi Dr !

  Regarding "how to capture the energy of a free falling weight",we can use a pair of weights,attached to a first class lever: this arrangement works as an unbalanced torque,free to develop alike a mass in a free gravity fall.

 This motion can be stored as rotational inertia.

 Some explicit comments,you can find at this forum,in some topics:
   -Heavy hub pendulum
   -Torque avalanche
   -H/h "puzzle"...
   -Long charge=short discharge
   -Same input-greater output
   -...and others...

 Regarding "to recycle" (to close the "loop")...there are some solutions.

 Maybe,in the future,I will rent a site on net,and open again my "gallery" of drawings,so to be more explicit.

 In this point of time,I am interested to make more easily  manifest the concept,or general idea of PM,this "dream machine" :simplicity is the best expression.
    All the best ! / Alex

 

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