Author Topic: Toroidal Motor (Read 96643 times)

Low-Q · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:36:56 PM »

Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2009, 09:53:29 PM

Below is a pic of a toroidal motor that I designed. I'm not even sure if this is even half baked. LOL

Here are the advantages I see with this motor:

1) The magnets do not rotate around the coil in the traditional way and the coil doesn't rotate around the magnets, which eliminates the polarity or direction of the current from always switching.

2) With the right arrangements of magnets on the top and bottom, this may reduce Lenz's law or even eliminate it. I have a few ideas on this, but haven't been able to fully think those ideas through until I know what this motor could do.

3) If this doesn't provide overunity, then it may provide for a more efficient motor and generator.

The disadvantages with this motor:

1) Not even sure if it will produce a current or emf (LOL), and I apologize for wasting the time it took you to read this.

Please let me know if it could be a thumbs up or a thumbs down and your reason. Thanks

Hi,

I made once a generator/motor with a toroid (Not a transformer - they have only one set of windings). The toroid is at the size of a 60VA transformer, so it isn't very big. However, I did put a normal ringmagnet on the top and the bottom where the north pole facing the toroid from both magnets. I put current in the toroid, but nothing happens. I was hoping I could make a brushless motor with DC current. I got the idea because I fly RC planes with brushless motors. But these have a special controller that is a 3-phase AC power supply.

Then I understood the problem. There is equal numbers of fluxlines entering through the windings and into the iron core as the number of fluxlines exiting the iron core through the windings. So the forces in the toroid cancelled out perfectly - even if there is current flow through the windings that is making a static magnetic field in the toroid core.

So I am just poiting out that I have already tried this (Also one like in your drawing), and it doesn't work $:-\$ How convenient it would be then if we could replace thet toroid with a round magnet with a curcular magnetic field and made it work.

However, If you manage to force the fluxlines from the magnets in going only one direction through the toroid windings and find another path back to the magnet withour affecting the windings, it would defenitely work. The question is just how to get these flux lines back in the magnetic loop without crossing the windings on the way back. Without that possibility the forces will be cancelled, whether you want it or not

Loudspeaker coils do exactly what we are looking for, but they have also limited allowed travel length because the magnetic lines CAN go back without crossing the windings again.

br.

Vidar

broli · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2009, 10:33:29 PM »

Quote from: mr_bojangles on March 18, 2009, 09:13:40 PM

it looks to me like you have the inside out version of a "faraday flashlight"

the flashlights have a magnet running in the middle of a coil of wires

interesting concept though, i had no idea it worked in reverse as well

i think ive solved it using this method (not yours but variations) that im still kicking around

until next time

The Faraday flash light relies entirely on magnetic induction. The proposed concepts here do not rely on induction. Induction is really a small part of the bigger picture, the bigger picture being the Lorentz force. This means that you can describe it with the Lorentz force but can't with the induction law because there's no changing flux.

Quote from: Low-Q on March 18, 2009, 09:36:56 PM

Hi,

I made once a generator/motor with a toroid (Not a transformer - they have only one set of windings). The toroid is at the size of a 60VA transformer, so it isn't very big. However, I did put a normal ringmagnet on the top and the bottom where the north pole facing the toroid from both magnets. I put current in the toroid, but nothing happens. I was hoping I could make a brushless motor with DC current. I got the idea because I fly RC planes with brushless motors. But these have a special controller that is a 3-phase AC power supply.

Then I understood the problem. There is equal numbers of fluxlines entering through the windings and into the iron core as the number of fluxlines exiting the iron core through the windings. So the forces in the toroid cancelled out perfectly - even if there is current flow through the windings that is making a static magnetic field in the toroid core.

So I am just poiting out that I have already tried this (Also one like in your drawing), and it doesn't work $:-\$ How convenient it would be then if we could replace thet toroid with a round magnet with a curcular magnetic field and made it work.

However, If you manage to force the fluxlines from the magnets in going only one direction through the toroid windings and find another path back to the magnet withour affecting the windings, it would defenitely work. The question is just how to get these flux lines back in the magnetic loop without crossing the windings on the way back. Without that possibility the forces will be cancelled, whether you want it or not

Loudspeaker coils do exactly what we are looking for, but they have also limited allowed travel length because the magnetic lines CAN go back without crossing the windings again.

br.

Vidar

Low-q I don't like your negative comments. Your flaw is obvious experimental and mentality wise. I'll show you in a few days that this is possible so you can stop your negative rants. You can't do simple mechanical calculations (this will show you that even the flux going in and out is equal the TORQUE IS NOT) you can't do simple electric calculations (this will show you the direction of all the forces and reaction forces) but yet you are very quick in belittling people by your broken knowledge.

jadaro2600 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:16:31 PM »

So, you want to create a brush less DC motor? ...the toroidal idea seems sound. Wouldn't a bifilar wound toroid do the trick? ...you may want to use something which a permanent magnet isn't attracted to as the toroid though.

Low-Q · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:17:44 PM »

Quote from: broli on March 18, 2009, 10:33:29 PM

Low-q I don't like your negative comments. Your flaw is obvious experimental and mentality wise. I'll show you in a few days that this is possible so you can stop your negative rants. You can't do simple mechanical calculations (this will show you that even the flux going in and out is equal the TORQUE IS NOT) you can't do simple electric calculations (this will show you the direction of all the forces and reaction forces) but yet you are very quick in belittling people by your broken knowledge.

Please be objective. More of those personal attacks, and I sure will recommend someone to throw you out of this forum for good. Grow up!

Vidar

broli · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:24:31 PM »

Objective? This isn't politics buddy.This is you spreading your negativity. I tried to reason with you many times but you are either ignorant or do it on purpose to sell your disinfo. If you don't like to talk to me then stop posting where I post. As long as you are ignorant to ideas I propose I will be there to defend them. I accept skepticism but then point out where the flaw is. Simply saying "I tried this in my hands just now and it didn't work so stop working on it" deserves no respect.

Oh and threatening to ban me is hilarious. I guess we aren't all adults here.

Low-Q · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:41:20 PM »

Quote from: broli on March 18, 2009, 11:24:31 PM

Objective? This isn't politics buddy.This is you spreading your negativity. I tried to reason with you many times but you are either ignorant or do it on purpose to sell your disinfo. If you don't like to talk to me then stop posting where I post. As long as you are ignorant to ideas I propose I will be there to defend them. I accept skepticism but then point out where the flaw is. Simply saying "I tried this in my hands just now and it didn't work so stop working on it" deserves no respect.

Oh and threatening to ban me is hilarious. I guess we aren't all adults here.

The flaw is that you are forgetting that the fluxlines in the inner part of a toroid is denser than the outer part. So the torque is equal on both sides. Simple as that. No offence.

Vidar

Charlie_V · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:40:15 AM »

Well, ignoring the pissing contest....

Broli,

When you tested the induction of the wire, I imagine applying a current didn't cause the top to spin either?

broli · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:19:23 AM »

Quote from: Charlie_V on March 19, 2009, 04:40:15 AM

Well, ignoring the pissing contest....

Broli,

When you tested the induction of the wire, I imagine applying a current didn't cause the top to spin either?

That's right.

wizkycho · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2009, 03:36:11 PM »

hi broli !

We (as civilization) know so little of homopolar setups
since this is homopolar setup and we know hompolar generator and motors are actually achiveable machines

This is wonderfull idea that I think has potential to solve main drawback of constructing hompolar generator and that is
obtaining low inner resistance and extracting kiloAMPERES.

Here with added coils I think voltage generated will be more usefull (much higher) and amperage more in range for our todays loads.

So broli I think you solved main drawback (and that is mechanicall complexity)

this is brilliant idea. one of the best and not just recently.
even if for some reason I can't see, it fails we will learn much more about such machines.

seems to me now even speed of magnet doesn't have to be that large.

this thingy if build properly could go past COP = 10......pure electricity.

what thinking !!!!!!

please if it works or not inform us.

as I said this is Drumm and Bass from Space and knowone and ever can escape it (even the ones not doing anything trying even not to think and have new ideas)

so everybody can only come and Join...nothing else.

Wiz

broli · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:10:37 PM »

Thank you wizkycho. Finally someone who's on the same page. You are exactly right. The main draw back is current in a classic homopolar motor. Because in theory the homopolar motor only uses one winding according to the below formula. While in this concept you can have as much windings as you like. So instead of having large currents you just increase the amount of windings or the wire length that's in the magnetic field. F= B*I*l *n, this the the force on the wire. In a regular homopolar motor n = 1 in this idea n can be as big as 1000. This means that with 1000 windings you only need to apply 1A. In a classic homopolar motor you need to apply 1000A for the same force.

Thanks for understanding I really needed this. I felt like I was talking to a brick wall with all the naysayers. I don't want people to just look at it and try a replica out I want them to understand the reasoning behind it so they can fine tune it themselves and know exactly what to adjust for more power.

Low-Q · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:14:10 PM »

Just one question @broli:

Which picture is correct (Look at the magnetpoles on the outer magnet in your original picture compared to the modified one below)? I got confused by your original picture and asked myself why the outer magnets are attracting each other and not repelling eachother, so I modified your picture below, together with some fluxlines-pictures of original and modified.

Vidar

broli · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:27:53 PM »

Good catch low-q I rendered this one wrong. It should be like you modified it.

jadaro2600 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:39:14 PM »

Just out of curiosity, what are you using to render the images?

broli · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:40:18 PM »

Google's sketchup.

Charlie_V · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:50:53 AM »

Hey broli,

I think this should work. The torque forces should be the same but because it is on a wheel, I would think the forces toward the outside of the wheel will produce more leverage causing rotation. Oh but I just realized something, the wire toward the outside of the wheel will be moving at a higher speed, so in fact it will generate a stronger force than the one closer in. So its going to have a counter emf. But what is cool is you've invented a homopolar generator that can have multiple turns (instead of just 1). I suspect that you'll be able to make this device spin so fast it tears itself apart (like a universal motor). The efficiency should be much better than the conventional homopolar generator too.

You should patent this if you can. If you live in the USA, by making it public you've given up your international rights but you can still hold a US patent. You have like a year after you make it public to apply for a patent. After that it becomes public domain.

Good luck,
Charlie

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