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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: 4Tesla on August 03, 2008, 11:08:36 AM
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Hi all,
I decided to open a new thread and dedicate it for sharing ideas to build a working Tri-Gate Motor (TGM).
I have three attached designs.. I don't know if any of them will work.. I would like your feedback. At this time I don't have the tools or money to build, so all I can do at this point is share ideas.. anyone is welcome to try and build it.
Info on the attachments: The rotor has magnets on both sides.. the orange lines in the last graphic are shields. 4 magnets per gate.. not 6 (2 on each side - no ends). Motor lies flat (top view).
Resources:
First thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5268.0/topicseen.html
GWHY!'s thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5264.0/topicseen.html
CLaNZeR's website
http://www.overunity.org.uk/triforcegate.html
Special thanks to CLaNZeR and GWHY! for their help and for sharing their ideas with me.
Jason
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Hi all,
I decided to open a new thread and dedicate it for sharing ideas to build a working Tri-Gate Motor (TGM).
I have three attached designs.. I don't know if any of them will work.. I would like your feedback. At this time I don't have the tools or money to build, so all I can do at this point is share ideas.. anyone is welcome to try and build it.
Info on the attachments: The rotor has magnets on both sides.. the orange lines in the last graphic are shields. 4 magnets per gate.. not 6 (2 on each side - no ends). Motor lies flat (top view).
Resources:
First thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5268.0/topicseen.html
GWHY!'s thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5264.0/topicseen.html
CLaNZeR's website
http://www.overunity.org.uk/triforcegate.html
Special thanks to CLaNZeR and GWHY! for their help and for sharing their ideas with me.
Jason
Hi Jason,
The only one I can see that you will have a chance with is TGM3 with the shielding. Like I said previously I have not played with shielding on anything yet so have no experience with it. You don't need to build the rotor to test the principle, just the 3 gate setup as in my demo would be enough to test on initially. Good luck.
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpPwI-YGQU
A suggestion I had given a while back.
A gate with no wall in the entry is the key, I think.
Or a way to break the wall using momentum/gravity.
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpPwI-YGQU
A suggestion I had given a while back.
A gate with no wall in the entry is the key, I think.
Or a way to break the wall using momentum/gravity.
Hi Omega,
Totally agree, a gate with no entry wall is the key either using shielding or by modding the configuration of the array. I did try myself breaking the wall using momentum/gravity without success ( I think I mentioned this to you in a earlier post a while back ). There is a gain in energy once the roller is in the array that allows the roller to be spit clear of the attract back in but this gain is lost when re-entering the next array ( or the same one ).
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The TGM pictured will not work. The gates would all be reached at the same time creating a lockup. There has to be more of one or the other to offset the gates meaning you need at least two to one and I would suggest having three or more to one so that three or more are pulling and or pushing one thru a gate.
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gwhy!
Do you have any vids for your setup ?
Surely there are many variables here.
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Sean (CLaNZeR) posted these useful rotor videos in the first thread.. None of them match my configuration.. my idea is to only have one end of the rotor in a gap at a time so the other end can push the end in the gap through the sticky entering the array. Also the ends of the gates weren't aligned well in these videos.. It is impossible to align the outer side of the gates without having spaces between the gates or by using longer magnets as I have shown in my graphics. Also I think that if you use two magnets on both sides of the gate instead of three that it is easier to keep it from a closed loop.
Jason
Thank you Sean for these!
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Hi Jason
Here are some Rotor Videos that were tried
http://www.overunity.org.uk/tri-gate/CLaNZeRSTri-ForceGate-Rotor1.wmv
http://www.overunity.org.uk/tri-gate/CLaNZeRSTri-ForceGate-Rotor2.wmv
http://www.overunity.org.uk/tri-gate/CLaNZeRSTri-ForceGate-Rotor3.wmv
http://www.overunity.org.uk/tri-gate/CLaNZeRSTri-ForceGate-Rotor4.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
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The TGM pictured will not work. The gates would all be reached at the same time creating a lockup. There has to be more of one or the other to offset the gates meaning you need at least two to one and I would suggest having three or more to one so that three or more are pulling and or pushing one thru a gate.
I see what you are saying.. if that became a problem.. I would offset them.
Jason
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@nightlife
I also agree with you on this, When I was playing with tri-gate rotors I came to the conclusion that you need at least 2 rollers at the beginning of the arrays for every gap being crossed. That is why I tried making a 3 rotor setup on a common shaft. this was my very first attempt at making any type of rotor so it was more of suck it and see and not really paying attention to the spacing and placement of the arrays. If you could work out a arm system that provides 2 rollers to be in place just after the entry wall at the same time that another roller is hitting a wall going into a set of gates this may well work. But if it could be done with shielding and one set of arms then jobs a good'un. ;)
@Omega
No I didn't make any vids of any of my old tri-gate rotors >:( but I wish I had now. I have only just realized how important it is to video everything even if it do not work how you hoped it would. There are many variables as you say and I did try changing quite a lot of them the only thing I can help with is if were to ask me a question about a setup that you would like to try I would answer the best I can based on my experiences.
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@all,
Where do you buy the magnet set that is used in Sean's videos? I googled ("magnet set", "magnet kit") for it, but it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Thanks,
Jason
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Magnetix here in the US.
I was not impressed by the consistancy of the Magnetix magnets or plastics (flash issues). Instead I bought 1/4" balls and 1/8" dia x 3/8" long neos from a magnet vendor. They work great, though a bit more powerful, and therefor, more difficult to work with. Also, the smaller scale makes assembly more challenging, but allows for less material cost for the rest of the build.
I went for samller scale to reduce cost.
Magnetix also has many extra shapes in their kits now. Hard to just get the bars and balls that you want without all the other crap.
M.
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Magnetix here in the US.
I was not impressed by the consistancy of the Magnetix magnets or plastics (flash issues). Instead I bought 1/4" balls and 1/8" dia x 3/8" long neos from a magnet vendor. They work great, though a bit more powerful, and therefor, more difficult to work with. Also, the smaller scale makes assembly more challenging, but allows for less material cost for the rest of the build.
I went for samller scale to reduce cost.
Magnetix also has many extra shapes in their kits now. Hard to just get the bars and balls that you want without all the other crap.
M.
Thanks!
Jason
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@all,
Where do you buy the magnet set that is used in Sean's videos? I googled ("magnet set", "magnet kit") for it, but it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Thanks,
Jason
Hi Jason,
I got all my trigate stuff from this guy on ebay
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/3711s-Magnets-and-stuff-shop
not the cheapest but very good quality. I not long bought some other mags from the states I cant remember where from i think it was something like SuperMagnetMan or something like that and did notice that they also do simular geomag kits that were a lot cheaper.
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I didn't think to google "magnet toys".. ::) They could be a GeoMag set. I can afford to buy one of the cheap GeoMag sets so I have something to experiment with. :)
Jason
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I wish I had a machine shop! ;D
Jason
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There are better sources than buying toy kits at retail. I bought 128 1/4" N42 grade neo cubes on sale from CMS magnetics a few months ago for less than $30.
These things are strong, but they can be glued down on many surfaces with a hot glue gun. It won't hurt them if you use the low temp hobby type but the glue is barely strong enough if they are too close together. They have many different sizes shapes and strengths at decent prices. The larger the quantity the better the discount. I use Vizimag, a $40.00 2d graphic finite element analysis magnetic field program to model different arrays, then export the array design into a paint program and print it out full scale. I use light card stock and fasten it to a sheet of modeler's plywood with permanent strength double sided tape or spraymount contact cement, then hot glue the magnets to the pattern. Makes for quick experimental prototyping.
www.magnet4sale.com (edited to correct the URL)
Razz
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Thanks Razz! Good prices! I'm going to order the $15 set.
http://www.magnet4sale.com/home.php?cat=321
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I decided to go with the $25 set as you get 3 times more than the $15 set.. only $10 more and 3 times more.. can't pass on that deal.
Jason
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The TGM pictured will not work. The gates would all be reached at the same time creating a lockup. There has to be more of one or the other to offset the gates meaning you need at least two to one and I would suggest having three or more to one so that three or more are pulling and or pushing one thru a gate.
I drew some lines to see if the gates are offset and it seems to me that they are.. one end of the rotor is at the tip of the gate and the other end is in the middle of two gates. I have attached a graphic.
Jason
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I drew some lines to see if the gates are offset and it seems to me that they are.. one end of the rotor is at the tip of the gate and the other end is in the middle of two gates. I have attached a graphic.
Jason
Hi Jason, it looks like you have much to learn about the gates. The design you posted has several gates but it has three large gates that all three arrays will hit at the same time. The three large gates are either at the entrances or at the exits depending on the polarity setups.
If you go back and research some other magnet motor threads you will find out what I am talking about. I don't want to discourage you and I am only trying to help you save time because there are a lot of us who have and or are still working on such designs. We have all already found out that you have to have more of one array then the other array and you have to have at least a three to one ratio. It is much more complicated then what you have pictured.
Keep on brainstorming, you may just figure out what we have not been able to. Good luck and keep us posted.
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By gates are you talking about walls/stickies?
Thanks,
Jason
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By gates are you talking about walls/stickies?
Thanks,
Jason
Hi Jason,
Your gaphic shows that 1 arm will be going though each array while the other arm is jumping the gap which is a good start, but you will need at least 2 ( 3 would be better) arms going through the arrays for every 1 gap being jumped. unless your still going to try with shielding. Hope this makes sence. This is what nighlife has explained. I will see if I can work out a good way of showing you what we mean about the gap in a vid.
edit: a gate is 1 tri-gate, an array is tri-gates connected together.
Cheers.
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Hi Jason,
Each array has it's "own stickie" points within but each array as a whole has a wall.
If you are planning on using shielding, you must note that shielding only bents the magnetic flux action and you will still have a equal pull and push.
Magnets have a equal strength from the center and you can not have one side stronger then the other. There is always a center to a magnetic field and when shielding is used, you are only moving the center of the magnetic field.
These next pictures should help explain better.
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Thanks guys!! I understand better. I ordered some magnets to experiment with.. so that should help me understand better also.
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I download the 30 day trial of Vizimag that Razz mentioned.. here are some graphics from playing with the program analyzing tri-gate arrays.
Jason
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Here is a design that I had drawn up some time ago. This is a three to one ratio and did not work do to the gate's attraction being stronger then the work being done but I am working on a updated version that I have not finished yet.
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I still don't have my magnets yet.. but anyone that has magnets, this might be worth trying.. according to this Vizimag software by having longer magnets at the begining and exit of the tri-gate array.. you should have no or little wall.. check out the flux field lines in the attached graphics..
Jason
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I have found one of the most useful tools in vizimag is the force calculator. This translates the influence of the field on a ferromagnetic object into kinetic force expressed as x and y vectors. The vector sum of these forces determine whether you have rotor motion in a favorable direction or not. The problem with any rotary model for a permanent magnet motor is that the vectors required to maintain motion are 180 degrees out of phase on the opposite sides of the rotor, so the fields if properly arranged on each side tend to cancel each other out and weaken the rotary motion. A magnetic motor is driven in exactly the same way as an electric motor, except that with the electric motor you can turn opposing fields on and off as needed.
Razz
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Thanks Razz!
I have attached a couple more graphics.. this time with the gates spread out.
Jason
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Thanks Razz! Good prices! I'm going to order the $15 set.
http://www.magnet4sale.com/home.php?cat=321
Forgot.. I want to let people know that this sites (magnet4sale.com) credit card process in only partially encrypted.. not good.. The good news is that you still can use PayPal which is safe.
Jason
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@CLaNZeR
Your design should work that I attached.. have you tried it yet? I am working on building a motor that is very similar to your design. I have attached it also.. the slants are where the magnets go.. I think filling in the triangles have confused a lot of people... sorry. I have decided to go with four magnets on the rotor like yours to give it more torque.
Jason
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I was reading some of the earlier posts of people saying that this motor won't work.. I think they thought that the whole inner circle spun.. the triangles (one side of a gate) are all stationary.. the only thing that spins is the line (the rotor) which has two magnets at each end that were not shown in the graphic... now I going to use four magnets.
Jason
Edit: I just updated and attached my graphic to show the trigates with red lines and to show the four magnets on the rotor. The cross or "X" is the rotor and only thing that spins.. not the inner circle.
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Any news? This is a pretty simple design, is there anybody who built it?
I think I have an idea on how this should work. There are several Gate Methods, like the trigate. Usually they work well from Point A to Point B, but as soon as I try to close a loop there will be a sticky point where it stops. So, no sticky point problems with this design? BTW interesting pictures of the magnetic flux. Maybe the one with the longer start and end magnets shows a possible solution to the problem?
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Hi Dieter,
Yep.. I'm building this.. I have ordered the supplies and should have a build to test within two months.
I believe the trigate configuration is the key to solving the stickies and walls.. also gaps to keep the magnets from a closed loop as that also causes problems. I may use eight magnets for the rotor.. I was going to use 2 and then 4, but now I link 8 would work best.. I probably will try all three.
Jason
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This video by CLaNZeR: http://www.overunity.org.uk/tri-gate/CLaNZeRSTri-ForceGate14.wmv proves that the extended entrance and exit does reduce the wall! :) 8) My first build will be without extensions, but I may add if I can't get it to work.
Jason
Attached is the flux simulation:
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Hello.
I have a thought about these gates as well:
I'm thinking about 3 tracks with gates parallel, with all the 3 runners on the same axis.
Since the wall in the entry gate for 1 track is just as strong as the kick in the exit; the force of 2 exit kicks is needed to help 1 runner through the entry wall. Now we have to set upp the gates so that 2 exists are always parallel with 1 entry.
Now I'm not sure I wrote this so clear and I will try to draw a picture tonight to see if this is physical possible.
Eric.
MODIFIED:
My first drawings showed already that the idea is not working. No mather with how many tracks I start; since I need 2 tracks to start 1 track, I have at the end only 1 track left. /Eric
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Hello.
I have a thought about these gates as well:
I'm thinking about 3 tracks with gates parallel, with all the 3 runners on the same axis.
Since the wall in the entry gate for 1 track is just as strong as the kick in the exit; the force of 2 exit kicks is needed to help 1 runner through the entry wall. Now we have to set upp the gates so that 2 exists are always parallel with 1 entry.
Now I'm not sure I wrote this so clear and I will try to draw a picture tonight to see if this is physical possible.
Eric.
MODIFIED:
My first drawings showed already that the idea is not working. No mather with how many tracks I start; since I need 2 tracks to start 1 track, I have at the end only 1 track left. /Eric
I hope you continue to work on this.. the more the better. I think I'm going to use 8 magnets on my rotor which should give me a 3:1 ratio - 3 magnets going through an array as one enters the array (the wall). If that won't break the wall then I'll try the extensions at the beginning and end of each array.
Jason
Edit: I changed my mind.. I don't think 8 magnets will be better that 4... I still get 3:1 with 4.
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I'm thinking instead of Tri-Gate Motor (TGM) we should call it Tri-Gate Permanent Magnet Motor (TGPMM)... What do you think?
Jason
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Hi Jason,
Nice work, one thing to consider is the gaps. You may have to make the gaps bigger that is in you drawings. From what I found with putting the gates in a loop is that once you have gone past the 180 degree mark with the gates the walls appear to get even harder to break. But that being said your arrangement works out very well.
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Thanks gwhy! I'll be building it soon and keep posting on progress and problems I come across.
Jason
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Hi Jason
No I did not try this one, it was an idea that was meant to get tried but as usual loads of other ideas got tested instead ;D
Look forward too seeing your results and have my Tri-gates at the ready if it looks promising!
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR
Your design should work that I attached.. have you tried it yet? I am working on building a motor that is very similar to your design. I have attached it also.. the slants are where the magnets go.. I think filling in the triangles have confused a lot of people... sorry. I have decided to go with four magnets on the rotor like yours to give it more torque.
Jason
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My supplies for my build are in the mail and should be here around 9/5.. I'll build as soon as they come and post pics and video.
Jason
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I have started building, but some of my magnets wont be here for a couple of weeks.. :(
Jason
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The website is broken today.. got here by looking at my latest posts through my profile..
I have my build half done.. I am using two sizes of magnets and order the wrong size for the other half.. I ordered the correct size yesterday. I will barrow my fathers camera and take some photos.. I should have some by next week.
Jason
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The website is broken today..
(This website is very often broken. Saving money by choosing a cheap host service is not a good thing.)
I follow your progress. Good luck.
Eric.
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Hi all.. just to let you know.. it didn't work :( ... couldn't get past the stickies at the beginning of the arrays.. even with 3:1 ratio (4 magnets).. I'm thinking of other ways.
Jason
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Hi all.. just to let you know.. it didn't work :( ... couldn't get past the stickies at the beginning of the arrays.. even with 3:1 ratio (4 magnets)..
It doesn't surprise me. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is no gain in balancing the magnetic forces.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5475.msg124439.html#msg124439
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@ Ergo
Don't be so negative. There is a way and it is possible it will be shown soon.
@ 4Tesla
Don't give up. I have asked Sean to do a test for me/us and it might be the answer. ( I/we hope) ;)
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Lol Ergo or should I call you God since you seem to have the knowledge of all possible uses of magnets ::). This is why I didn't like school. They forced to make you think in only one way and if you tried to be creative points were deducted. Never say never, take a look where you at before making such comments.
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It was very close to working.. I'll take some pics as soon as I get my fathers camera.
Some things I've learned.. first, that having the magnets bridged with a steal ball or bolt improves performance.. My magnets were so small (only 1/16" thick) that I didn't use a steal ball.. then I went and bought some bbs and it helped. second you get more torque with the magnet going through the array at the same level as the array than going over the array. It still may work if it was tweaked.. maybe bigger magnets, and with my build I couldn't get the armature magnets level with the array. I'll get photos asap.
Jason
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It's OK, you can all call me negative, and I really am negative in finding OU in any device using
the Trigate or simular combinations of magnets. It will always even out the forces involved.
You can have temporary movement from these contrapments but you loose that movement in closed loop.
I do believe in OU devices, but only designs that utilises a magnetic gradient to accomplish torque.
The most common is the SMOT, but Sprains device is a more beautiful implementation of this concept.
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(This website is very often broken. Saving money by choosing a cheap host service is not a good thing.)
The problem is the signal to noise ratio. If you check the data download symbol, you will
find that most pages are around 200k of data, of which 1k is of value to us, and the rest is
advertising and crap. I accept the need for some advertising, but the design of this site
is dreadful.
Paul.
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It's OK, you can all call me negative, and I really am negative in finding OU in any device using
the Trigate or simular combinations of magnets. It will always even out the forces involved.
You can have temporary movement from these contrapments but you loose that movement in closed loop.
I do believe in OU devices, but only designs that utilises a magnetic gradient to accomplish torque.
The most common is the SMOT, but Sprains device is a more beautiful implementation of this concept.
It isn't a closed loop and it isn't balanced. I used gaps to keep it from being closed and divided the arrays into thirds and the armature into quarters.. please don't post your same comments over and over.
Thanks,
Jason
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It isn't a closed loop and it isn't balanced. I used gaps to keep it from being closed and divided the arrays into thirds and the armature into quarters.
You misunderstand me. It is not the gaps that determine wether it is closed loop or not.
Closed loop simply means self running. If you get it to self run then is is closed loop.
The circular movement being able to run on its own. But this won't happen using the Tri-Gates.
It has been tried countless of times and the efffect declines as soon as you try to make it run circular.
But keep on trying. It fun to read about people trying even the most impossible. Good bless you!
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I have so far seen none use shielding as the main theme in their experiments. There are some threads about this but so far I have seen no builds.
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I have so far seen none use shielding as the main theme in their experiments. There are some threads about this but so far I have seen no builds.
This is because there is no such thing as a shield that isn't attracted to the magnet itself.
The very strong attraction to magnetic flux kills any attempt to use it for OU machines.
This is a pure fact and nothing I just took out of the blue.
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This is because there is no such thing as a shield that isn't attracted to the magnet itself.
The very strong attraction to magnetic flux kills any attempt to use it for OU machines.
This is a pure fact and nothing I just took out of the blue.
Who said the shield was being brought in and out? You can have the shield act in such a way that the magnets cause a 0 net force on the shield but still does its job as a shield. But I again forgot that you did all the experiments in your head and we should just quite and listen to you oh almighty Ergo.
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You don't have to listen to me. Please keep up your fine balancing acts. It's fun to read about. ;D
If you "have the shield act in such a way that the magnets cause a 0 net force" then you are balancing the
forces and there is no gain from this type of contraptions. If there were any you could simulate it and find out
how to make it work. Magnetic flux lines is very well known and there is nothing hidden or magical going on.
I'm not trying to stop you from experimenting. I just want to enlighten you about some certain facts.
If you know what you are dealing with you don't have to repeat the same mistakes as all the others before you.
But maybe I'm all wrong about this and you'll soon find the Holy Graal.....NOT! 8)
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Ergo.. we don't want your opinion or what you think is fact.. we know what you think.
Thanks,
Jason
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I have a new idea for a gate.. I'll see if it works. I'm getting my fathers camera tonight.. hopefully I'll have pics of my build to post tonight.
Jason
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Hi all,
I finally got some photos!! :)
I used a motor and hub from an old portable CD player.. I took out the armature and magnets in the motor so that it is just the shaft and no load. I tested the arrays with one magnet on the armature and it traveled through the arrays but stopped at the walls at the beginning of the arrays.. same for the four magnet armature shown. The magnets are N42 that are 1/16" thick. The smaller magnets in the arrays are 3/8" and the longer ones are 1/2". The magnets on the armature are 1/4". I haven't giving up on this idea.
Jason
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*BUMP*.. just in case anyone missed my post of photos of my build.
Jason
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Hi Jason,
I like your build and I like the idea of using that size of mags for the trigate config. There are still a few things I want to try with the t-gate configuration but I am having a rest from playing at the mo due to other commitments. Keep up the good work ;). Someone will crack it one day I'm sure.
All the best.