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Author Topic: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?  (Read 8790 times)

slider1

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Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« on: July 26, 2008, 08:58:37 PM »
Two questions.
Meyer has different versions it seems of his vic. One on page 22 of his independent test evaluation. This looks like it is a variable power supply 0-120 v rectified. I see how he gets his pulse train but he always talks about high voltage. I don't see that here? Am I missing something? I see in some places he talks about voltage in the KV range and frequency in the kHz range but this is 60hz.

Second if you have a bifilar coil for a charging choke how do you have one adjustable without affecting the other?

HeairBear

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2008, 03:13:06 AM »
Here are some links that may help you understand how to increase voltage like a step-up transformer, but, without one.

http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/tesla/mres4.html

http://67.76.235.52/DrStiffler/SECExciter.asp

http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html

As far as I know, to have one variable choke, the two chokes would either have to be separated or taps could be wired in if they are wound together. In my opinion, Stan added the tunable choke for obscurity. None of his working demonstrations had any visible tunable choke.

alan

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 01:40:41 PM »
The HV is achieved by charging the watercap with lower voltage pulses.

Visual Echo

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 01:27:56 AM »
The tunable choke is in the original patent.  I think I've seen one picture of what I thought was a tunable coil, it looked like it had a brass wiper attached, like a crystal radio coil.  I think it was in the D14 document.  As I understand, it wasn't until later that Meyer suggested the differential mode bifilar choke.  A further revision with all windings on one ferrite can be seen in the WO 92/07861 patent Figure 1 ( http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/wo92.htm ).

In that picture, TX1 is a primary of a step-up transformer.  The TX2 secondary has many more windings than TX1, so the voltage is much higher.  TX4 and TX5 are the choke coils, notice there is no tunable feature shown in this drawing.  TX1 and TX3 are in the pulse generator circuit, the rest of the coils are isolated and connected with the water cell.

I'm personally interested in TX3, which is a feedback to a phase-lock-loop circuit.  When the cell goes into resonance, that coil sends back pulses... at least that's how I understand it.  I'm trying to get there to find out  ;D

I can't quite figure out what you mean by the rectified 120V 60Hz thing, the Dave Lawton style dual-555 timer pulse circuit is what most people are using to drive a resonant water cell with wind-chime style electrodes.  I think you may be confusing this with the Boyce circuit, which is a combination brute force and rich harmonics circuit using flat plates.

I've read one document that suggested using an old neon sign transformer for the VIC.  A new 120VAC to 6000 volt coil is around $50, but you may have to remove active components that they mold into the unit.  Driven with a 12 volt pulse, you should get several hundred volts out of the secondary, so be careful, it won't just sting... it can KILL you.  A standard transformer that converts US 120VAC or european 240VAC to 12VAC can also be used hooked up backwards.

(http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/wo92-1.jpg)

HeairBear

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 03:52:24 AM »
The question was about this circuit which was used in his independent study. This is the original VIC before any improvements that was publicly demonstrated along with the rotary version. It's just plain jane but it's what he used to prove his work. Notice the 0-110V variable transformer? AC 60hz rectified would turn into 120hz DC pulses.

(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6185/stansvicfw6.jpg)

(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1945/stansrotaryyb5.jpg)

Visual Echo

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 04:44:12 AM »
Aughh!!  Thank you HeairBear, I owe you 5 information demerits.  I hadn't seen that drawing before, and it makes perfect sense.

So this is before his first patent (4936961) ?  It has the blocking diode but no VIC transformer (would go where the voltmeter is connected). The SCR works as the MOSFET driver in the Lawton circuit.  No adjustable second frequency, it's fixed at 120 Hz, and the gate signal is from a circuit off drawing.  The bifilar coil is connected in what I think is called common mode instead of reversing the leads on one side, differential mode?  Am I using those terms correctly?

I think Meyer realized that resonance was the key.  Does higher voltage more easily cause resonance?  Like if you tap a cymbal it might resonate at a different pitch than if you gave it a good hard whack?  In another thread you posted a link to the dune buggy video, he says he only uses 5 volts, if my awful ears don't deceive me.  So maybe voltage isn't that important, but if we use a VIC transformer it effectively isolates the water capacitor from the pulse generator making resonance easier, and higher voltage through the transformer makes it easier to hit that resonance.  The patent suggests a VIC of only 200:600 windings, not a dramatic voltage increase.  Musings of a fool (and it's me).  I don't know enough about this, if the resonance formula involves frequency, inductance, and capacitance, how does voltage fit in?  And does an isolating VIC transformer aid in allowing resonance and tuning it (by way of isolation, not voltage increase)?

It seems like it would be very hard to tune resonance with this circuit.  Pardon me if I'm rambling, and thank you for your assistance.  New information is causing consternation with elation at this station.

slider1

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 07:32:43 AM »
Just one of the odd things is how he talks about resonance. Like Visual Echo says it would be hard to tune resonance with this circuit. I see the reason and importance to obtain resonance, current goes to a minimum and voltage goes to infinity. When I see this circuit, it is very simple but does it resonate? As we would know Xl = Xc = resonance. Resonance or not the bifilar choke cancels the current. The pulse train charges the capacitor giving you the step charge. Is there resonance amongst the bifilar choke and the WFC???? I see that every time the pulse turns off the field of the bifilar collapses current goes down, voltage goes up and stepcharges the cap. But again is this resonance? Can't we feed our pulse train to a flyback transformer to step up the voltage and then rectify it and then input that to the bifilar?? Won't this be the same??

Visual Echo

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 06:37:48 AM »
The Wikipedia article on "LC Circuit" helped me understand some of this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit ).  If the inductors are fixed value, the water capacitor changes unpredictably, and the frequency is easily controlled, finding a strong resonance point in the circuit seems difficult but not impossible.

Using a flyback transformer for the VIC transformer sounds great.  I think in this example, it would be inserted into Figure 8XA at the voltage meter.  Then the blocking diode would be in the right place.  I think this would be the same, I think the answer is yes.

I invite you to comment on my replication at http://pyroflatulence.tv/?cat=7 , I've posted some pictures and schematics using Eagle PCB CAD.

slider1

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Re: Questions Meyers VIC circuit?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2008, 06:54:00 AM »
definitely not impossible. Just doing some math and at 120hz and 200-400pf water cell would take a pretty big inductor. I guess what I am saying is I am not sure that resonance as we know it is actually necessary? I am not sure that Meyer had his WFC resonating even though he talks about it all the time. I think one of the most important things is the stepcharge pulse train and high voltage and no current. Now the pulse is easy to create. Step that voltage up with a flyback or step-up transformer. Now when you feed that into a bifilar coil you limit current and when the pulse shuts off the field in the coil will collapse and increase the voltage potential to the plates of the WFC with no current. Every pulse to the WFC or cap will charge the cap higher creating the step-charge.
Someone help me out here, am I on the right track. Also this takes the dynamic capacitance value of the WFC out of the equation and no need for a PLL to keep this thing in resonance.