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Author Topic: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets  (Read 5945 times)

freefuelplz

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dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« on: April 17, 2008, 05:57:11 AM »
I made an electro magnet out of an iron nail and some wire and battery today. I also broke 2 relays apart and used the electromagnet inside to test some thing. I COULD NOT get any opposition out of anything. Can electromagnets oppose? I could only get them to attract. I know its a dumb question.

Feynman

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2008, 11:36:12 AM »
I think this is a great question


Electromagnets can oppose.    BUT I suspect they must be very strong for this to happen.   Your electromagnets are probably attracting because they are not strong enough.  Let me show you an example of how I think this can happen.

(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2104/magnetspr6.jpg)


Now, the easiest way to get them more powerful is to do more turns of wire per unit length.  You can also increase the supply voltage.


Additionally, make sure you are wrapping your coil in the same direction.  That is, if you wrap clockwise,  make sure you wrap clockwise the entire length of the electromagnet.  Follow the "right hand rule" to make sure your B-field doesn't cancel itself.

(http://www.physics.sjsu.edu/becker/physics51/31_03_Inductor.JPG)

You can tell which way B (the magnetic field) will point by the "Right Hand Rule" and taking your hand, curling your fingers in direction of the current i , and seeing which way your thumb points.  Try it on the diagram. Curl your fingers in the direction of i (in the coil) and stick your thumb out.

 You will see your thumb points in the direction of B, the magnetic field.  (right to left, like this <---  )

freefuelplz

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2008, 03:26:12 PM »
Thanks for the great response. If what i was trying to oppose was a strong permanent magnet, then would it work better? In other words, is it only because of the iron cores that they wont oppose easily?

Low-Q

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2008, 05:49:35 PM »
I made an electro magnet out of an iron nail and some wire and battery today. I also broke 2 relays apart and used the electromagnet inside to test some thing. I COULD NOT get any opposition out of anything. Can electromagnets oppose? I could only get them to attract. I know its a dumb question.
If you have two magnets, iron cored electromagnets or permanent magnets, where equal poles are facing, they can attract eachother if one magnet is much stronger than the other, and they are close enough. This happens typically in electromotors. They does not start running spontaneously if the current through the windings in the rotor is too weak. Magnets are made of ferro magnetic materials, and a strong magnet will attract to that feromagnetic material even if the polarity of that object is facing it's equal pole. However, if you have two aircoils, equal poles will allways repel as long there is electric current flowing through the coils.

br.

Vidar

Tempest

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2008, 10:14:53 PM »
Are you using ac or dc to power them?

Low-Q

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2008, 11:34:37 AM »
Are you using ac or dc to power them?

That shouldn't change the situation if the phase of the current flow in one of them are 0o or 180o, they will attrack or repel regardless of AC or DC.

br.

Vidar

GeoscienceStudent

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2008, 06:59:19 AM »
This is a great question and the following answers after have answered some of my questions too.  I had a problem not being able to get a monopolar magnet motor to work.  But the magnets would attract on both sides, having no repellation.  I thought maybe I had a faulty magnet, so I went and got real strong ones, (though they kept moving across the table on me attracted to everything) then the motor worked.  (it's just making the wire go around, not harnessing any energy)
So these cheapo magnets, does this mean some of them even though the same type might have some stronger than another? 
2nd question.  On these monopolar motors, you put a battery on top of a magnet (on the negative side of the battery) then a wire on the top of the battery (positive side) then two sides ( I can't get the curled type to work) coming down to either side of the magnet, slightly curled and it spins.  The battery works for about 2 hours gets hot and quits.  Are we really forming a dipole here?  I'm a little skeptical about "monopolar" and wondering if we created a dipole from the magnet attached on the negative side ?  I don't know?


Beck  (trying to learn what you'll never see in school)

armagdn03

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2008, 07:08:32 AM »
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you will never ever have a mono pole magnet, simply cannot be done. You can adjust geometries so that one pole is not as apparent, but it will always be there and it will always be exactly as strong as the opposite pole. If you were to find such a thing you would have something even more impossible than overunity  ;D j/k........

GeoscienceStudent

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 06:51:37 PM »
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you will never ever have a mono pole magnet, simply cannot be done. You can adjust geometries so that one pole is not as apparent, but it will always be there and it will always be exactly as strong as the opposite pole. If you were to find such a thing you would have something even more impossible than overunity  ;D j/k........
;) You didn't burst any bubbles.  I was skeptical from the beginning, because it did not make sense with what I read about dipoles, and the magnets are attached to the negative side. The energy apparently does not come from within the battery but is obtained when the dipole and electromagnetic field is formed.  1/2 energy goes to loads and losses, and 1/2 destroys the dipole.  It has to use up the battery reforming this dipole.  I tested my idea that this was occuring (I may not have explained it perfect, sorry) by running it till it ran out of battery power.  Looks like a dipole to me.  Am I wrong?

I also noticed when I turn the magnets over, the wire changes direction running clockwise, or counterclockwise depending on which side the magnets are on.

Beck

2b

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2008, 10:47:12 PM »
> Sorry to burst your bubble, but you will never ever have a mono pole magnet, simply cannot be done.

i don't know if this is true, because i have seen respectable people connect magnets in such a way so that they are effectively monopole magnets, eg, you can take several magnets and arrange them in such a way that one pole cancels itself out, and the cluster functions as a monopole.


Ren

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2008, 12:59:12 AM »
Despite configuration there is always the two poles. Like Armagdn said, you can adjust geometries so that one pole is not "AS APPARENT" but there is always two poles (and a center ;))

@ Freefuelplz. You can get them to attract hey, for opposition try switching the leads around on one of the coils. Test with a small magnet to see which pole is created when current flows through the winding. Like others already said, if you have one E-mag that is larger (wire size will play into the strength of the magnet significantly) it will probably over power a smaller one and just attract to the core regardless. Two e-mags of same gauge and size shouldnt do this.

@Geoscience. IF you are reffering to the monopole motor/energizer of JB's design then I can offer you some tips to get it running. You need to be a little more specific with your explainations, i.e. "the wire changes direction running clockwise..." What changes direction? The wire phsically moves and changes its direction?

GeoscienceStudent

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Re: dumb question about ELECTROmagnets
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2008, 03:55:08 AM »

@Geoscience. IF you are reffering to the monopole motor/energizer of JB's design then I can offer you some tips to get it running. You need to be a little more specific with your explainations, i.e. "the wire changes direction running clockwise..." What changes direction? The wire phsically moves and changes its direction?

It is a battery with a magnet on the bottom of it.  A copper wire is attached to the top of the battery and goes along the sides and the two ends of the wire wrap a little around the magnets. The wire spins.  Turn the magnet over, the wire spins the opposite direction.  This was done to test what happens when poles are turned over. 
The question is actually related to wondering what happens when the poles of the Earth switch, however, that has a Dynamo Effect.  I did find on line from a science lab institution some models made by Quantum Computer what happens, but they only show the inner electromagnetic field switching, and thus the outer one switching, and explain about the energy being the opposite direction of the magnetic field, but don't show what happens to the spin of the Earth.  I'm closer to my answer, but still don't have an answer.   Just wondering.