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Author Topic: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.  (Read 9241 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2022, 01:04:21 PM »
The results you got came from the changing amount of flux available from the 3 test cases. 

When the N and S poles are able to join via the rotor plate, test 3, (even via air gaps) their number of "fluxlines" is the highest, hence the eddy drag in the rotor plate reflecting back the prime mover is the highest.
When all N or (all S) poles are able to attract to the rotor plate, test 2, their number of "fluxlines" can only be less than in test case 3, hence eddy drag is less.

I would suggest to get rid of the steel plates and attempt to use ferrite disks or plates instead.

FYI   https://www.laird.com/tool-bar?q=ferrite%20disk

Mouser have them: https://eu.mouser.com/c/passive-components/emi-filters-emi-suppression/emi-gaskets-sheets-absorbers-shielding/?q=mm1400   
     their relative magnetic permeability is around 650
You could encase the ferrite disk or disks in a 3D printed plastic case with holding shaft(s) also printed for them I think.

EDIT:  I understand you modified the idea and replaced the steel disk with permanent magnets.  Well,  as long as the "fluxlines" inside any of the magnets remain quasi stationary and they move only when they leave the surface the eddy current cannot develop inside an otherwise conductive magnet.  Tests can show whether the body of the magnets would warm or heat up after a certain run time.  The closer the magnets would move near to each other, the higher the chance for having moving "fluxlines" inside their body.
I agree that using ceramic magnets has no chance for eddy current develop inside,  in their case the issue might be demagnetization on the long run when they used between strong Neo magnets.  So an all ceramic setup on the long run is preferable.
Gyula

I did a basic test spinning a solid thick disc against 4 magnets all on the same side of the disc.  I could not test opposite side of the disc because of the motor design.

1. No magnets in range:  29 volts-  .5 amps
2. All 4 North Magnets-  29 volts .8 amps
3. Two North magnets , Two South magnets:    29 volts / 1.15 Amps


I have this on video- and I understand this was not a controlled scientific test.  Just based on observation:  .6 amp increase of input power with alternating polarity.  .3 amp increase with like polarities.  Will need more tests to verify, but based on this:

 ??? ?  Drag increases with like poles,  but only half as much compared to using opposing poles ??? ??

I uploaded the rough test here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FKg-1Qnk8

NOTE-  Also tested with 2 magnets only.  Little noticeable differences in amperage between like and opposing poles.  Both ways relatively the same increase.   Trying to think of the reason, and possible extensive testing to follow.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2022, 07:49:11 PM »
I started printing this out, but evaluated the whole process and I have doubts:

In reference to using all magnets (no steel).---

Repelling Side--  When the NORTH magnet on the rotor passes the stationary NORTH magnets, the coil around the stationary magnet will gather flux that will oppose the repulsion, or weaken the repulsion.

Attraction Side-
When the SOUTH magnet on the rotor passes NORTH magnets, the coil will work with the stationary magnet and ADD even more attraction to the Rotor.

With any generation of power, the balance between the poles will be offset in equal proportion with the power generated, thus applying drag on the rotor.

Is my logic here correct? 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2022, 08:26:46 PM »
IMHO yes, your logic sounds correct. 

But such test would still be useful to do...  8)    All the 4 stator magnets will have a coil on them, right?

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2022, 08:43:35 PM »
IMHO yes, your logic sounds correct. 

But such test would still be useful to do...  8)    All the 4 stator magnets will have a coil on them, right?

I want to say thank you for taking the time to evaluate these configurations.  Your knowledge is very useful and appreciated.

In this plan, yes all 4 stationary magnets would have coils.  But I am drawing it out trying to find a configuration that has the best chance of goodness.  I have another configuration that is boggling my mind, trying to think of what would happen.

In the config below, it should balance and also have no drag.  If the center 2 stationary magnets had coils on them, I have no idea how the induced polarities would align, that is if any current is even generated.  Surely there must be some moving flux lines in such a configuration. But will they just buck and cancel each other out?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2022, 08:56:19 PM »

I think that using coils at each pole end of each stationary magnet would give the best induction just because the flux change is the greatest at the ends, see attachment for coils position. 
I will think on your new drawing above later on. 

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2022, 09:17:59 PM »
Yeah!

I have 1 more design idea that has really got me intrigued to the extreme.  Such a simple concept.  Reverse the whole logic..

Coils wrapped around the stationary magnets..  LOTS AND LOTS of drag when starting it up..  And let Lenz Law reverse the drag from the permanent magnets as it speeds up.

You should be able to push generation up until the current created induction in the coils equals the flux pull of the permanent magnet, thus cancelling out drag.  We should only be able to draw until the flux in the coil is equal to the magnets flux. If we go past that point, drag will start increasing again but in the attraction direction


Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2022, 09:50:01 PM »
Don't even need to wrap coils over the magnets..

2 permanent magnets opposing the rotor.  2 Coils on on the opposite sides..

As the motor gets speed, coils attract to the rotor from the Lenz Flux, neutralizing the repulsion (drag) of the permanent magnets.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2022, 11:00:44 PM »
In your config shown in Reply #18, i.e. in this post quoted,  you would get a more active flux change  compared to the config shown in Reply #12. What I mean: 

 In case of the config in Reply #12, in the Repel moments the flux can change relatively little at the outer poles of the 2 stator magnets so the coils at that outer ends will produce little output I think.

 When the same 2 stator magnets get into the Attract moments,  the flux can change in a bigger quantity at all the end poles of these 2 magnets because the neutral area of them (being normally in the middle of their length) will move towards the center of the rotor magnets.  So this moving "zone" can cause higher induction at each end of them I think versus the Repel moments when the neutral zones remain more or less in the original center zone of the stator magnets involved and the bigger induction can happen only at their repelled pole ends where two repel poles 'clash' (rotor and stator like poles).

So in the config attached to this post  the neutral zone of the stator magnets will be forced to move both in the Repel and Attract moments and this and the repel flux clashes may yield a higher overall output I think. This is why the coils are to be placed near to the pole ends.




I want to say thank you for taking the time to evaluate these configurations.  Your knowledge is very useful and appreciated.

In this plan, yes all 4 stationary magnets would have coils.  But I am drawing it out trying to find a configuration that has the best chance of goodness.  I have another configuration that is boggling my mind, trying to think of what would happen.

In the config below, it should balance and also have no drag.  If the center 2 stationary magnets had coils on them, I have no idea how the induced polarities would align, that is if any current is even generated.  Surely there must be some moving flux lines in such a configuration. But will they just buck and cancel each other out?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2022, 11:04:53 PM »
Yes, I agree.  And this involves a not so widely varying load current to remain in the relatively narrow range where the preferred condition you describe may be met. 



Yeah!

I have 1 more design idea that has really got me intrigued to the extreme.  Such a simple concept.  Reverse the whole logic..

Coils wrapped around the stationary magnets..  LOTS AND LOTS of drag when starting it up..  And let Lenz Law reverse the drag from the permanent magnets as it speeds up.

You should be able to push generation up until the current created induction in the coils equals the flux pull of the permanent magnet, thus cancelling out drag.  We should only be able to draw until the flux in the coil is equal to the magnets flux. If we go past that point, drag will start increasing again but in the attraction direction

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2022, 11:09:27 PM »
Yes, this sounds better...   8)   

And mechanical drag due to the repel poles (cogging?) may be compensated by too,  but then you will be in the same situation when Lenz still applies for the coils like in this case the drawing is showing?  Need to think on this Lenz drag further on. 


Don't even need to wrap coils over the magnets..

2 permanent magnets opposing the rotor.  2 Coils on on the opposite sides..

As the motor gets speed, coils attract to the rotor from the Lenz Flux, neutralizing the repulsion (drag) of the permanent magnets.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2022, 11:24:24 PM »
I had to do a rough test and I am liking what I am seeing so far.

Jerry rigged like the last pic.  But 1 magnet opposing the rotor..  and 1 iron core coil on top.  Not balanced or optimized in any way.  Just to see if it got more efficient as I increased speed.  Load connected to coil was 8 ohm resistor.


WITHOUT ANY Magnets / Coils for reference. Rotor alone

1. 5V .57 Amps. 2.85 watts.  1050 RPM  368 RPM Per Watt
2. 8V .64 Amps 5.12 Watts.  1845 RPM  360 RPM per Watt
3. 12V .75 Amp= 9 Watts.  2935 RPM..  326.1 RPM per watt

Next- Hooked up the opposing magnet / coil...

1. Input 5 Volts , 1.2 amps.  6 Watts,  RPM=  707.  707/6= 117.8 RPM per watt.  Output- .2V
2.  Input=  8 Volts, 1 amp..  8 Watts..  RPM=  1700..  1700/8= 212.5 RPM per watt input..  Output = .2V AC
3. Input= 12V .85 Amp.  10.2 Watts.  RPM=  2900.    2900/10.2= 284.3 RPM per watt.  Output-  .4 Volts AC

Percentages.  6 watts to 10.2 watts is a 70% increase of input power.
117 RPM to 284 RP.3 RPM is an increase of 141.34% RPM Per Watt.

**  It got more efficient while pulling more power from it ** <-  I did not measure output amperage in this test

I figure I should be able to increase input power till I am about at 360RPM per watt again- matching the unloaded tests.  Then this configuration will be at maximum.  But if these tests are correct and repeatable- this is scalable.  Add more repulsion and I can draw more causing attraction. 

I will need to build this much better- but I think the more I draw from it, the more efficient it will get till the flux pulls are equal.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2022, 11:31:53 PM »
Yes, this sounds better...   8)   

And mechanical drag due to the repel poles (cogging?) may be compensated by too,  but then you will be in the same situation when Lenz still applies for the coils like in this case the drawing is showing?  Need to think on this Lenz drag further on.

I think in this case we want Lenz drag.  The more Lenz drag the coils induce, the more it neutralizes the 2 repelling magnets against the rotor.  I think we want to speed the motor up till the flux in the coil (from pulling amperage) is equal to the flux of the permanent magnets.  But no more or the lenz will start to hurt us

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2022, 11:43:39 PM »
Yes, in this case Lenz is a must indeed, your concept is based on that.  Thanks for sharing the results.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2022, 11:58:06 PM »
I think this will be the final idea for the real build.  To fix the issue of the small output power and make it full alternating current on the coils..

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2022, 12:24:11 AM »
I like this latest concept.   8)   

Perhaps the coils orientation could be like Naudin showed in his drawing on the right side: 
http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif   Tests can give a correct answer which is better.