Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity? (Read 606045 times)

poynt99 · « **Reply #735 on:** May 05, 2013, 04:19:08 PM »

Lawrence,

You seem to have forgotten this post:
http://www.overunity.com/12686/is-joule-thief-circuit-gets-overunity/msg359036/#msg359036

where I clearly show that a high-end scope IS NOT REQUIRED to demonstrate that the input current trace does not ever cross the 0-reference axis.

This of course would confirm that recharge current never goes back to the battery or capacitor as you have suggested.

ltseung888 · « **Reply #736 on:** May 05, 2013, 11:28:03 PM »

Quote from: poynt99 on May 05, 2013, 04:19:08 PM

Lawrence,

You seem to have forgotten this post:
http://www.overunity.com/12686/is-joule-thief-circuit-gets-overunity/msg359036/#msg359036

where I clearly show that a high-end scope IS NOT REQUIRED to demonstrate that the input current trace does not ever cross the 0-reference axis. *** But it is still required to show reliable Input and Output analysis results.

This of course would confirm that recharge current never goes back to the battery or capacitor as you have suggested.

@poynt99

Buying a new analog oscilloscope in Hong Kong is not that easy. It is like buying a DOS based PC. Retailers just do not carry them anymore.

Another piece of good news from this work is:

(1) A wealthy individual (not interested in financial returns) is willing to donate the necessary funds to get a high end DSO.
(2) A group of “poor” inventors are willing to work together on this Lead-out Energy field. Some of them are working on Joule Ringer and other circuits. They are happy to have the use of high end DSOs and share the experience and expertise.
(3) A Lawmaker is willing to discuss the possibility of Public Fund Support for “research centers” open to the General Public. He feels that it constitutes “meaningful economic activities”. Hong Kong should not depend on finance (stock and property speculation?) totally for its long term future.

Thanks for showing the results on your high end 4-CH Tektronics. It helped all researchers.

God works in mysterious ways.

ltseung888 · « **Reply #737 on:** May 05, 2013, 11:58:25 PM »

The cheap (no oscilloscope) video seems to indicate charging and draining of battery with capacitor in the circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBR9lO2ISGs

What does that mean?

poynt99 · « **Reply #738 on:** May 06, 2013, 12:26:57 AM »

Lawrence,

I did not say you had to use a NEW analog scope. There is a China version of ebay; so surely you could buy a used one there for $100 or less.

http://www.ebay.cn/

Also, you do not have to use an analog oscilloscope to verify your findings. Borrow anyone's scope, as long as it is NOT an ATTEN brand, nor one made by the same manufacturer.

What about Mr. Zhou? Does he not have several different brands of scope for sale? Could you ask him to verify the current trace with a different model?

TinselKoala · « **Reply #739 on:** May 06, 2013, 12:37:45 AM »

Quote from: ltseung888 on May 05, 2013, 11:58:25 PM

The cheap (no oscilloscope) video seems to indicate charging and draining of battery with capacitor in the circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBR9lO2ISGs

What does that mean?

It means that your DMM is trying to "lock on" to a signal that is actually a pulse train instead of a steady signal. The meter has a time constant over which it averages its instant input values for display. It does not mean that your system is "charging and draining" its battery, it means that you are looking at a flag flapping in the wind, by blinking your eyes rapidly. Sometimes you see the flag on one side of the pole, sometimes the other, but the flag remains attached even when your eyes are completely closed.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #740 on:** May 06, 2013, 12:43:51 AM »

Quote from: poynt99 on May 06, 2013, 12:26:57 AM

Lawrence,

I did not say you had to use a NEW analog scope. There is a China version of ebay; so surely you could buy a used one there for $100 or less.

http://www.ebay.cn/

Also, you do not have to use an analog oscilloscope to verify your findings. Borrow anyone's scope, as long as it is NOT an ATTEN brand, nor one made by the same manufacturer.

What about Mr. Zhou? Does he not have several different brands of scope for sale? Could you ask him to verify the current trace with a different model?

Based on what we've seen in this thread, I am skeptical about Lawrence's ability to interpret a graphical display at all. When we were discussing probe compensation, for example, he did not seem to realize what the traces from the calibrator were showing, or why they were incorrect.

I don't want to seem insulting, but Lawrence has his hands full with this most simple DSO. I shudder to think of the problems that might arise when he starts trying to use a good analog scope with features like delayed triggering, but with no onscreen display of numerical values and no way to dump data to a spreadsheet for mashup.

(And he STILL hasn't answered the questions about the one probe/channel combo that was indicating 15 volts or more when it should have indicated 3 1/2 or so. Is this because he simply cannot interpret the graphical display, so he doesn't understand that there is an issue there?)

poynt99 · « **Reply #741 on:** May 06, 2013, 12:48:07 AM »

I'm trying to encourage Lawrence to use any other oscilloscope, including any analog scope he may come across. The goal being of course to verify that current trace. Most 20MHz scopes I have come across are fairly basic in their operation, and shouldn't be too difficult to manage. If there are problems, we can help.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #742 on:** May 06, 2013, 12:54:30 AM »

Here's this, though. For under 600 USD (4500 HKD) you can get a high-quality 60 MHz digital oscilloscope, along with the spectrum analyzer/measurement module, with serial port for data output to computer.

http://hongkong.craigslist.hk/ele/3702060042.html

I would be more than proud to have an instrument setup like this in my laboratory. I would be ecstatic.

Awww.... it's got a monochrome screen though.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #743 on:** May 06, 2013, 01:06:07 AM »

Quote from: poynt99 on May 06, 2013, 12:48:07 AM

I'm trying to encourage Lawrence to use any other oscilloscope, including any analog scope he may come across. The goal being of course to verify that current trace. Most 20MHz scopes I have come across are fairly basic in their operation, and shouldn't be too difficult to manage. If there are problems, we can help.

I agree, of course.... I have been trying to get him to use other forms of measurement for some time now, even finding the contact information for a local HongKong test equipment rental company for him. I've lost a lot of faith in the last few days though, since he's not willing to do the simple tests that PW, you and I have asked for using his present gear. And especially since the real progress that has occurred has been all in this thread, identifying his errors and the scope's inaccuracies, yet the benefits from this work are not coming to us... rather, his church seems to want to use its member donations to buy still more fancy equipment, which will only tell him the same things that we have been telling him for weeks. Yes, I resent it somewhat when someone else benefits financially from my freely donated efforts, and they don't even acknowledge that fact.

ltseung888 · « **Reply #744 on:** May 06, 2013, 01:59:43 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on May 06, 2013, 01:06:07 AM

I agree, of course.... I have been trying to get him to use other forms of measurement for some time now, even finding the contact information for a local HongKong test equipment rental company for him. I've lost a lot of faith in the last few days though, since he's not willing to do the simple tests that PW, you and I have asked for using his present gear. And especially since the real progress that has occurred has been all in this thread, identifying his errors and the scope's inaccuracies, yet the benefits from this work are not coming to us... rather, his church seems to want to use its member donations to buy still more fancy equipment, which will only tell him the same things that we have been telling him for weeks. Yes, I resent it somewhat when someone else benefits financially from my freely donated efforts, and they don't even acknowledge that fact.

I hereby acknowledge the contribution of TK, PW, Poynt99 and others to bring out the scientific truth in this thread.

The simple JT is unlikely to show OU. But their efforts have help to identify a procedure and the use of a high end DSO to get correct Input and Output Power measurement. This will benefit all researchers.

I shall let Mr. Zhou and the Atten Technical Support to work on the issues related to the Atten and they can read this thread. l shall take Poynt99's advice and use another Brand of DSO being sold by Mr. Zhou. (I may even get the 4-CH tektronics in a few weeks and the properly trained people in Hong Kong to help.)

I should have started these postings three years ago when I first got the Atten. I never mastered all its functions (just like I never mastered those on my mobile phone). The students read the instruction manual and helped to set it up. Poynt99 may still remember that I used Voltage Vrms and Current Vrms to get the Tseung Comparison index for my different badly soldered prototypes.....

Deliberately exposing one's limitations for all to see and learn has its benefits.

Poit · « **Reply #745 on:** May 06, 2013, 02:27:19 AM »

Quote from: ltseung888 on May 06, 2013, 01:59:43 AM

I hereby acknowledge the contribution of TK, PW, Poynt99 and others to bring out the scientific truth in this thread.

The simple JT is unlikely to show OU. But their efforts have help to identify a procedure and the use of a high end DSO to get correct Input and Output Power measurement. This will benefit all researchers.

I shall let Mr. Zhou and the Atten Technical Support to work on the issues related to the Atten and they can read this thread. l shall take Poynt99's advice and use another Brand of DSO being sold by Mr. Zhou. (I may even get the 4-CH tektronics in a few weeks and the properly trained people in Hong Kong to help.)

I should have started these postings three years ago when I first got the Atten. I never mastered all its functions (just like I never mastered those on my mobile phone). The students read the instruction manual and helped to set it up. Poynt99 may still remember that I used Voltage Vrms and Current Vrms to get the Tseung Comparison index for my different badly soldered prototypes.....

Deliberately exposing one's limitations for all to see and learn has its benefits.

I have nothing useful to contribute, I just want to quote (above) incase he decides to recant. "The simple JT is unlikely to show OU."

TinselKoala · « **Reply #746 on:** May 06, 2013, 10:40:32 AM »

Quote from: ltseung888 on May 06, 2013, 01:59:43 AM

I hereby acknowledge the contribution of TK, PW, Poynt99 and others to bring out the scientific truth in this thread.

(snip)

That's great, thank you, I feel so much better now.

But who is picking up the tab for all that Divine Wine?

ltseung888 · « **Reply #747 on:** May 06, 2013, 11:08:52 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on May 06, 2013, 10:40:32 AM

That's great, thank you, I feel so much better now.

But who is picking up the tab for all that Divine Wine?

@TK

Do not worry about "who" picks up the tab. Poynt99's 4-CH Tektronics costs LESS than one bottle of his fine wine. His family fortune is within Forb's wealthiest 100. More money does not mean much to him or his family. ***Many tourists from China now buy luxury items. Some handbags or watches cost more than the Tektronics. Which one is more useful? Which one is likely to create more "meaningful economic activities"?

*** Had a pleasant dinner with Ms. Forever Yuen and her boyfriend. Forever is the one who introduced the students to help me a few years back. They will help as needed.

PiCéd · « **Reply #748 on:** May 06, 2013, 01:03:28 PM »

I am sure of one think about the joule thief, that there is no OU, in fact it is rather than a economizer of energy, the more you are in the resonance frequency, the lesser energy is consumed, And as it is impossible to arrive at the exact resonance it is impossible to have 0 watt consumed.
I hope I'm not mistaken. $:-\$

forest · « **Reply #749 on:** May 06, 2013, 03:19:05 PM »

If you want proof , just run JT from a charged capacitor of less then 1 farad for a week duration. Possible ? No ? So, you have nothing.....

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