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Author Topic: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets  (Read 11126 times)

Golden Mean

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Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« on: March 03, 2008, 08:26:48 AM »
Greetings fellow OU enthusiasts!

What happens to a permanent magnet if you wrap a coil around it and run a charge through the coil?  I'm curious if this can be used to temporarily increase/decrease a permanent magnets strength at the gate area of a magnetic motor/generator.  Anyone have knowledge on this or can point me in the right direction?
Thanks.

~Golden Mean

Honk

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 08:48:26 AM »
No, you cannot temporarily switch of the flux level by a wrapped around coil.
But you will damage the magnet if the induced dynamic field strength is to high in reverse.

This question have been up several times.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2751.msg56551.html#msg56551

Quote:
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The force field in a magnet is static even if the magnet is moving, That has got to do with the source of the force.
The source of the force field in a magnet is the magnet itself, due to the molecular alignment. Hence the description "static".
In an electromagnet, the force is "dynamic" because there is a flow of current. It's the Amperes that demagnetise the magnet.
And to demagnetise it, the whole magnet must be inside the force field of the electromagnet. In a rotating motor only the poles/tips
are exposed, hence degradation is not present. There is always some shape degradation (natural loss of power) but that is irrelevant.
For Neo magnets its around 5-10% in 100 years. That's all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to add that it will take a super conducting coil to damage a NdFeb magnet. An ordinary coil is to weak.
NdFeb magnets is extremely resistant against demagnetization.

FreeEnergy

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2008, 08:51:33 AM »
Greetings fellow OU enthusiasts!

What happens to a permanent magnet if you wrap a coil around it and run a charge through the coil?  I'm curious if this can be used to temporarily increase/decrease a permanent magnets strength at the gate area of a magnetic motor/generator.  Anyone have knowledge on this or can point me in the right direction?
Thanks.

~Golden Mean


hi,
i was thinking the same thing the other day. not sure but i think it is true that if you wrap coil around a magnet you can increase its magnetic field. but only if the charge/current is greater than the magnet's magnetic field. i guess you can only increase and not decrease im not sure. actually maybe you can reverse the field and actually decrease the magnetic field by applying a reverse charge/current. this kind of thing could be applied to the tri-gate project http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4142.0.html


i think paul sprain did something like this http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor


Koen1

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2008, 12:57:09 PM »
I'd like to add that it will take a super conducting coil to damage a NdFeb magnet. An ordinary coil is to weak.
NdFeb magnets is extremely resistant against demagnetization.

Yes and no.
Neodymium magnets are known to be internally conductive as well as relatively brittle.
When exposed to other strong magnetic fields and moved through them, depending on the
overall field strength and shape of course, Eddies can be created inside the Neodymium material,
which can very well disrupt the material structure locally and cause the magnet to demagnetise
in that specific location. This can weaken the material structure and cause it to become relatively
more brittle, and some accounts of Nd atoms coming off as a "vapour"/"gas" have even been spotted.
This does not necessarily go for all Nd-containing magnets, and only in specific circumstances
(foucault-type homopolar experiments for example).

Another factoid is that the new "supermagnets" are not as permanent as the "old" ferrite magnets.
Where the older but weaker magnet types can retain their magnetism really almost permanently,
the newer alloy supermagnet types are stronger but less structurally stable, often slightly internally
conductive, and because of this not truly permanent. Just really long period magnets.
;)

Liberty

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2008, 01:32:48 PM »
I wonder if it is possible or probable that an eddy current could be formed on a Neo magnet if the Neo magnet material is in a magnetically saturated condition?

Isn't a magnetically saturated material (like a Neo magnet) "full" of magnetism to the point that it can't hold any more?  I'm wondering how an eddy current could form in an already magnetically saturated state?

Golden Mean

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2008, 03:54:46 PM »
Thank you for the replies.  My idea is not to "shut down" a NIB magnet but to disrupt it at one end somehow... electrically induced temporary shielding. 
I've read that wrapping a coil around a magnet and aligning the polar arrangement of the magnetism will increase the strength of the magnetism overall.  It stands to reason that any magnetic flux in the opposite direction should decrease the overall strength, shouldn't it?  Or at least change the flux patterns to reduce it's strength with respect to the geometric arrangement of the permanent magnets.

Magnetic material degradation is definitely a cause for concern.  If the permanent magnets don't hold up, this idea won't fly.

Does anyone have any good online resources to look into regarding this concept?

Thanks again!

~Golden Mean

Honk

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2008, 04:42:31 PM »
Try to wind a coil around a neo and you'll discover that you can't affect a neo by a simple standard coil.
You must use a superconducting coil to create a field strong enough to affect the very resistant field from a neo.
But you will end up hurting the magnet in this process.

Neos are magnetized by being placed inside a superconduting coil, and also demagnetized if desired.
But feel free to try out your idea. Testing is learning. And please report your findings here at OU forum.

gyulasun

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2008, 04:51:33 PM »
....
I've read that wrapping a coil around a magnet and aligning the polar arrangement of the magnetism will increase the strength of the magnetism overall.  It stands to reason that any magnetic flux in the opposite direction should decrease the overall strength, shouldn't it?  Or at least change the flux patterns to reduce it's strength with respect to the geometric arrangement of the permanent magnets.
....

Hi,

I think Jack's magnetic valve principle covers your idea pretty well, the difference maybe is that he first wraps a ferromagnetic material around a permanent magnet and then winds the coil around this "jacket".  See this link:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor  with his drawings on the concept.
Jack is also a member here and has got a separate thread on his motors with the valves.

rgds,  Gyula

Koen1

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Re: Electromagnetism Effects on Permanent Magnets
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2008, 07:09:07 PM »
hmmm... "Jacks magnetic valve principle"?
That's a well known principle commonly referred to as a "flux gate" by
many FE experimenters... what's Jack got to do with it? ;)

@liberty: well, a magnetically saturated material should indeed not
be able to "conduct" more magnetic flux through itself,
but that does not automatically mean there is no room for variations
in the flux density of the magnet, nor that the magnetic saturation
is automatically homogenous. Variations in magnetic field strength and/or
permeability plus any form of motion will lead to eddies, except if the
material itself does not allow for it.
Typically the new supermagnet alloys are more electrically conductive
than the old permanent ones, and their magnetic zones are mostly of
a different type (speaking in terms of molecular structure).
As far as I know. ;)