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Author Topic: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...  (Read 26831 times)

Offline Nabo00o

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Yes.... Damn I think the picture needs some change, this system will be totally different than what I had mind.
Connecting a bunch of those pipes together, maybe in groups of eight, now that would have been interesting!

I realize I shouldn't be thinking about volume at all when this system is so small and just meant to be tested.
First of all we should try to guarantee a positive increase in temperature, and a couple of these pipes connected together with a little isolation in between is no big hazel to build  :D

Even if unlikely, I suggest adding a pressure safety valve on the last pipe, just in case steam builds up, though I don't know how many pipes that would be needed to make it happen....

Naboo

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Offline lumen

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I was thinking PVC pipe, but with one pipe inside the other and using a vacuum in the wall spacing to form a large thermos bottle.

Then just fill the inner tube with water and three thermocouple thermometers, one at the top, center and bottom, shake it up well and see how well it separates.
Once the separation rate is recorded it could be used to calculate any practical application.

Offline Nabo00o

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So you mean like using one larger pvc pipe to isolate the other smaller one, with vacuum?
Do you not think that any where close to a vacuum would shatter the pipes, since they are only made of plastic?

Was this also what you talked about last time, because I envisioned that you meant almost what I suggested here, only that they were instead placed inside each other, with isolation in between.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I just wonder if it will be more practical than having them placed side by side.
If you meant more units in one cylinder then a heat pipe solution would be quite complicated, but maybe that "heat amplifier" you talked about did it in another way?

Naboo

Offline lumen

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@Nabo00o

No, the vacuum idea is something totally different than the other tank inside a tank heat amplifier from the early days.

The PVC vacuum bottle concept is just to insulate the inner tank chamber to get an accurate test of heat separation in the water with the smallest outside influence as possible.
It should not be a problem since a total vacuum is only about 15psi.



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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Just throwing out ideas but would the idea still work if you have it built in pipe sections? Use a copper or aluminum on the top and bottom of next pipe. This way it could be modular just add more on top.

Offline Nabo00o

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It could, but you see what you done here is really just building one big pipe.
What matter is height and not the volume, and I think by placing several different layers in one pipe, or just stacking one pipe on the next one will only make it harder, and unnecessary so.
You can just as easily use one long pipe, but since it is unpractical (and hard to find) in such lengths it would be easier to stack several of them side by side, and connect them in series, if that description fits here.

I think at least for now if no better ideas surface, that the normal 120 mm wide 2 meter long pvc tube would fit the job perfect, of course any variant in length and thickness wouldn't be any big problem either.

Naboo

Edit: Btw is it Blender you used for the image, I'm just starting to learn the program myself  :D
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 05:27:22 PM by Nabo00o »

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Offline lumen

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I have an 80ft deep well that I don't use and that is why I was thinking of PVC pipe with vacuum insulation.
I could stack a column of 10" dia. pipe 80ft long and just supply some ambient heat to the bottom. The column should separate to a reasonably high temperature at the top with the vacuum insulation along the entire length.
I would still need to do a single test segment and get the numbers first to determine if any real value exists in this concept.

This may end up being a good way to extract geothermal heat even from a 50F ground temperature. You could have hot water year round for free!


     

Offline Nabo00o

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Wow thats pretty deep, and yeah I can understand why you would want to test if this works at all to begin with.

Also I would recommend that you first try everything out with pure air, because air does truly have a tendency to separate into temperature layers when not disturbed.
And in a way you could call it geotermal heat, but remember, its not from the ground, its from the normal air around you that the heat is extracted. Call it gravitermal or buoyatermal heat instead  ;D

Also if you had the time and proper measuring devices, you should test what the difference in temperature between the bottom and top of two equally long and insulated pipes can be, one which is filled with water and the other with air.

I have a feeling that the one with air may give a higher temperature but a lower supply rate than the one filled with water. I don't really know how oil would behave but I know it would be expensive and risky to fill a well full of it :D


Btw I get what you're saying now, if it is in the middle of the winter a four time amplification wouldn't do you much good if the temperature was at -10 degrees Celsius (14 degrees Fahrenheit).

Naboo

Offline lumen

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It may be possible to calculate the heat separation by using some charts I found.

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Offline triffid

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I think this is an interesting project.If the temp difference can be made great enought it could drive a miter wheel which could in turn, turn a generator to make electricity.The tank could absorb the heat during the day and then release it at night thus turning the wheel nearly 24 hours around the clock.It would be a solar heating project of sorts since most heat on earth comes from the sun except for that which comes from the earth's core.Triffid

Offline Nabo00o

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Yes those are really handy to have, and I see water will actually increase its volume with around 4.3% if heated from 4 up to 100 degrees.
This is in contrast to gases which will increase their volume by 33% when heated from 0 to 100 degrees.

One thing which might influence these figures is the static increase of water pressure as you go down in meters, in your case it was about 24 meters.
I checked a converter in Opera and it seem 10.4 meters will give you one bar of pressure, and 24 meters will give about 2.34 bars. A change in pressure will give some change in temperature so it is worth taking into account.

Also here is a useful link about air pressure and the gas laws.
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/152.mf1i.spring02/ThermProps.htm

Offline Nabo00o

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I think this is an interesting project.If the temp difference can be made great enought it could drive a miter wheel which could in turn, turn a generator to make electricity.The tank could absorb the heat during the day and then release it at night thus turning the wheel nearly 24 hours around the clock.It would be a solar heating project of sorts since most heat on earth comes from the sun except for that which comes from the earth's core.Triffid

I haven't heard of the miter wheel before, but yes, if it could generate enough heat all common machinery should be able to be powered. One idea is, that if you could maybe make the pvc tubes generate up to 70 degrees Celsius in temperature, you could connect the last tube to a more powerful steel tube which could safely bring the water up to 100 degrees without risking to melt or blow up.

Also as there is some similarities with this tread and the heat pump tread, in both I do not believe that I am using either solar heat or any heat source to make the potentials. The total temperature of this system and its surroundings will be the same at all time, but inside there will appear a potential difference of temperature.

This means that no heat is "used up", in fact I believe there exists almost no machinery that can actually convert heat into mechanical motion, what we most commonly use is difference of pressure and temperature, not the actual heat itself, and so the total temperature of Earth would absolutely not have decreased if its entire population had used this or the heat pump technology to make extra energy.

I am not saying that the energy appears out of nowhere, but I don't believe that its source is a physical one.

Naboo


Offline lumen

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You can use a sterling heat engine or even some high tech peltier devices to convert the heat to electric directly.
The best part is both these devices need a heat sink or cool side also, so you can just put the heat back into the first tank!

You would only need some ambient heat to get up to working temperature, then it would just recycle the heat and keep producing electricity. It would be a true gravity machine!


Offline Nabo00o

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You can use a sterling heat engine or even some high tech peltier devices to convert the heat to electric directly.
The best part is both these devices need a heat sink or cool side also, so you can just put the heat back into the first tank!

You would only need some ambient heat to get up to working temperature, then it would just recycle the heat and keep producing electricity. It would be a true gravity machine!

Yes that was exactly my thought, this is why you could put the entire "power plant" into a "box", isolate it from the environment and have a wire coming out, giving you free electricity. In the heat pump scenario you would have two wires, one input and one output, with the out wire giving more than you put in because of the heat pump's extreme efficiency of separating heat into temperature potential.

Of course we do not need to put it in a box, but it would prove the point that once some environmental heat has been absorbed and placed in the loop inside, it would work much more like a medium for energy production than the source of energy itself.
So I guess the first thing to test now is to measure how well heat can be separated in a pipe isolated at the top, and absorbing at the bottom. If we could just get a few degrees of difference top-to-bottom, and before waiting too many hours, this could really spark the beginning of whole new way to heat homes and and buildings, and eventually even fuel todays power hungry home electrical needs.

Well, maybe..... We should always dream. And never say anything is impossible, at least not before we try it. Naboo

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