Author Topic: Generating H and O separately (Read 10441 times)

22350 · « **on:** June 06, 2008, 12:03:20 AM »

I am interested in building a generator that will make the two gases separately. Can someone point me to a link where I can see plans?

armagdn03 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 06, 2008, 12:18:50 AM »

This is actually quite simple to accomplish through regular electrolysis. The trick is to have your tank designed so that at the top of it are two tubes (clear glass or plastic works well) jut straight up, fill this tank with two tubes up to the top of the tubes (water shown as blue in crappy picture attatched) then make sure the anode and cathode extend into the two tubes and are mostly contained within the tubes (shown in red). Oxygen and hydrogen will then seperately rise to the top of each tube and can be collected through a valve at the top (not shown in crappy picture). This only works with DC electrolysis, with ac, you will get an H and O mix.

Im sure it need not be said, but as the gass builds, either it will displace water which needs to go somewhere or it will build in pressure, also, hydrogen is extreemly explosive, cool trick is to let the pressure of hydrogen buid, fill a baloon with it, and light it with a meter stick (distance is for safety) and you will be surprised at the HUGE bang it creates. I would suggest building your tank to withstand the pressure, otherwise the water level in the water level will drop, and less will be in contact with anode and cathode increasing the resistance, and decreasing the gass production.

22350 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 06, 2008, 12:39:48 AM »

Quote from: armagdn03 on June 06, 2008, 12:18:50 AM

This is actually quite simple to accomplish through regular electrolysis. The trick is to have your tank designed so that at the top of it are two tubes (clear glass or plastic works well) jut straight up, fill this tank with two tubes up to the top of the tubes (water shown as blue in crappy picture attached) then make sure the anode and cathode extend into the two tubes and are mostly contained within the tubes (shown in red). Oxygen and hydrogen will then seperately rise to the top of each tube and can be collected through a valve at the top (not shown in crappy picture). This only works with DC electrolysis, with ac, you will get an H and O mix.

Im sure it need not be said, but as the gass builds, either it will displace water which needs to go somewhere or it will build in pressure, also, hydrogen is extreemly explosive, cool trick is to let the pressure of hydrogen buid, fill a baloon with it, and light it with a meter stick (distance is for safety) and you will be surprised at the HUGE bang it creates. I would suggest building your tank to withstand the pressure, otherwise the water level in the water level will drop, and less will be in contact with anode and cathode increasing the resistance, and decreasing the gass production.

First of all, thanks for the extremely quick reply.

I am curious as to why more people aren't creating the gas separately? Seems that the Dingel model works with this sort of cell. Also the Hydrogen can be stored (not under presure) without explosive tendencies.

Just seems like you would have better mixture control in an all hydrogen powered engine

armagdn03 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2008, 01:29:12 AM »

One of the main reasons for not creating them separately is that when the gasses are allowed to mix with standard electrolysis, they will be in the perfect molar quantity (quantity of substance measured with number of molecules rather than mass) for combustion without any left over gasses of any kind, meaning complete and total combustion of all gasses involved. However they do not take presurization well without getting water vapor again.

22350 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2008, 02:34:57 AM »

I thought I read on these boards that there was a little less O than needed to optimal combustion.

Don't you run into the problem of not being able to store the HHO gas so that that it can be fed into a carburetor or injector at a controlled rate? You are at the mercy of the HHO generator. Also, how do you deal with acceleration? don't you then have to control the level of oxygen to control engine revs? I suppose that you could install the HHO input "upstream" of the fuel injection system or carburetor. Seems a little wild.

armagdn03 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 06, 2008, 03:46:34 AM »

The deal is that oxygen and hydrogen weight different ammounts, but you need 2 hydrogen and one oxygen for complete combustion, (hence H20) but the molicules weigh different amounts, so people may say you need more of one than the other, but the molar quantities is what is important. Dissasociation of water gives the perfect quantities, what comes out, is what burns to go back in to water.

To use in an engine browns gas or HHO would have to be created on demand, you are correct on this matter.

The amount of oxygen needed for different parts of the engine cycle will change, considering you are burning a different amount of fuel per unit time, however your engines air intake is built for this and doesn't need to be worried about on the gasoline end of things, and since in HHO you will already have the oxygen you need, if you inject more of it, you still have the perfect quantity needed,

22350 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 06, 2008, 04:21:18 AM »

Quote from: armagdn03 on June 06, 2008, 03:46:34 AM

The deal is that oxygen and hydrogen weight different ammounts, but you need 2 hydrogen and one oxygen for complete combustion, (hence H20) but the molicules weigh different amounts, so people may say you need more of one than the other, but the molar quantities is what is important. Dissasociation of water gives the perfect quantities, what comes out, is what burns to go back in to water.

To use in an engine browns gas or HHO would have to be created on demand, you are correct on this matter.

The amount of oxygen needed for different parts of the engine cycle will change, considering you are burning a different amount of fuel per unit time, however your engines air intake is built for this and doesn't need to be worried about on the gasoline end of things, and since in HHO you will already have the oxygen you need, if you inject more of it, you still have the perfect quantity needed,

So the required situation is having an HHO generator, that can keep up with the maximum demand of a propane carburettor / injector.

The problem is what to do with that production when it overcomes the required amount of gas. You can't just keep it in the cell, because it is combustible.

Also some sort of production monitoring system has to be very accurate, as there is no buffer chamber to supply the intake.

Also, if you are mixing this perfect burning material, aren't you adding more oxygen from the air at the intake? how is this different than mixing all of the oxygen through the intake?

Now going back to suppling only hydrogen. Won't the air in the intake which is supplemented by O2 coming from the generator cell, combine with the supply of hydrogen metered by the carburettor? Ok, there might be some extra molecules left over, but it seems to be working in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1LHNojGZuo&feature=related
YouTube - FIAT 500 running on hydrogen

Now he is not working from a generating cell, he has his hydrogen in a bottle, but it is running. So assuming he is not playing a game, we know the hydrogen is a working solution to run the engine, baring any heating issues.

armagdn03 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 06, 2008, 03:31:41 PM »

If there is only hydrogen supplied, you need to supply the oxygen separately through the air intake. If there is HHO no additional oxygen need be there, however you may want extra gas anyway simply to expand in the cylinder, so air intake is still good, just wont burn. Also, water mist can be used to expand, I have seen this solution done in a modified 4 stroke which became a 5 stroke with the addition of a water misting stroke for extra expansion.

22350 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 06, 2008, 06:38:03 PM »

Quote from: armagdn03 on June 06, 2008, 03:31:41 PM

If there is only hydrogen supplied, you need to supply the oxygen separately through the air intake. If there is HHO no additional oxygen need be there, however you may want extra gas anyway simply to expand in the cylinder, so air intake is still good, just wont burn. Also, water mist can be used to expand, I have seen this solution done in a modified 4 stroke which became a 5 stroke with the addition of a water misting stroke for extra expansion.

Yes, I was looking at the water mist idea, although it adds a huge engineering component to things.

I understand what you are saying about the HHO. The problem I see is standardizing the production. If production is just on demand, it will never match up with the specific needs of an engine, unless you are using the production to control the throttle. Also, you can't bleed off or store excess gas, because it is flammable. It might work for a generator, but not anything that is going to require metered delivery

A buffer, or storage cell, will allow some sort of generating control, based on the pressure in that cell. The oxygen component can be dumped into the intake track right in front of the carb / injector, without any concern as to where it goes. There would be some inconsistency with the oxygen component vs. hydrogen, but it seems like that would be minimal, due to the fact that the engine is going to use almost every bit of gas produced by a generator anyway.

hmmmm...

Creativity · « **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2008, 09:46:24 PM »

cases of running an ICE*:

a) no air only HHO=> perfect balance
b) air + HHO only=> excess oxygen .some oxygen can be dumped from HHO to allow for more power to be produced.
c) air + normal amount of fuel+ HHO=>HHO carries its own oxygen but there is not enough oxygen for fuel.HHO displaces oxygen from the air.
d) air + normal amount of fuel+ H2 => fuel competes with H2 for oxygen tu burn,also less oxygen is coming to the engine( than normally),because of the gaseous form of H2 displacing air.
e) air + lowered fuel amount+ H2=>OK.lower power because of substitution of fuel by gaseous h2
d) air + lowered fuel amount+ HHO=>OK.lower power because of substitution of fuel by gaseous HHO

*substantial amount of HHO must be supplied to make any differece.Accounted for HHO,H2 in gaseous form.

22350 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2008, 11:10:20 PM »

Quote from: Creativity on June 06, 2008, 09:46:24 PM

cases of running an ICE*:

a) no air only HHO=> perfect balance
b) air + HHO only=> excess oxygen .some oxygen can be dumped from HHO to allow for more power to be produced.
c) air + normal amount of fuel+ HHO=>HHO carries its own oxygen but there is not enough oxygen for fuel.HHO displaces oxygen from the air.
d) air + normal amount of fuel+ H2 => fuel competes with H2 for oxygen tu burn,also less oxygen is coming to the engine( than normally),because of the gaseous form of H2 displacing air.
e) air + lowered fuel amount+ H2=>OK.lower power because of substitution of fuel by gaseous h2
d) air + lowered fuel amount+ HHO=>OK.lower power because of substitution of fuel by gaseous HHO

*substantial amount of HHO must be supplied to make any differece.Accounted for HHO,H2 in gaseous form.

Not sure that I understand this symbol combination: "=>" Does it mean "equal or greater"?

I totally get what you are saying, but I just don't see how to regulate the fuel going to the engine, without any sort of standard pressure. It will put your mixture all over the place and wreak havoc with you mixture of combustibles. You need to remove some of these variables. This "perfect" molar combination isn't cutting it.

When someone can show me HHO running into the intake track of an engine and making it run in any sort of regular way, I will buy in.

22350 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2008, 11:14:47 PM »

Anyway, back to the subject of separate H and O generators.

This company seems to have some pretty solid HHO generators, which are small, low amperage, and generate about 2 liters of HHO a minute.

http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/index.html

The problem is that for the concept I want to try, I need the gases separated.

Does Anyone know of a company producing a comparable product with separate generation?

Athopi · « **Reply #12 on:** June 07, 2008, 10:57:38 PM »

Quote from: 22350 on June 06, 2008, 06:38:03 PM

I understand what you are saying about the HHO. The problem I see is standardizing the production. If production is just on demand, it will never match up with the specific needs of an engine, unless you are using the production to control the throttle. Also, you can't bleed off or store excess gas, because it is flammable. It might work for a generator, but not anything that is going to require metered delivery

A buffer, or storage cell, will allow some sort of generating control, based on the pressure in that cell. The oxygen component can be dumped into the intake track right in front of the carb / injector, without any concern as to where it goes. There would be some inconsistency with the oxygen component vs. hydrogen, but it seems like that would be minimal, due to the fact that the engine is going to use almost every bit of gas produced by a generator anyway.

The way I see it is this: If, at maximum demand, your engine needs 7 psi of gas you make sure your HHO system can produce 7 or more. Most vehicles will not need maximum gas pressure all the time, so what to do with the excess? I think an accumulator tank between the gas generator and the engine would be useful at say 20 to 40 psi (depending on the size of the tank and cubic demand of the engine). Then, like on an air tank compressor set up, there would be a poppet valve, to insure no overpressurization, and a pressure cut off. Only, instead of the pressure cutoff controlling the electric motor like on an air set up, it would disconnect power to your gas generator. Then, as the system psi reduce due to usage, the switch on the accumulator would cycle and turn the generator back on until there was again enough pressure in the tank. The intermittant running of the gas generator should also help in its cooling.

Granted, HHO is more volitile than just plain H because you have the accelerant right there, but a properly sealed, vented and grounded system should be just as safe, or more, than the gasoline we use now.

22350 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 07, 2008, 11:04:01 PM »

Quote from: Athopi on June 07, 2008, 10:57:38 PM

The way I see it is this: If, at maximum demand, your engine needs 7 psi of gas you make sure your HHO system can produce 7 or more. Most vehicles will not need maximum gas pressure all the time, so what to do with the excess? I think an accumulator tank between the gas generator and the engine would be useful at say 20 to 40 psi (depending on the size of the tank and cubic demand of the engine). Then, like on an air tank compressor set up, there would be a poppet valve, to insure no overpressurization, and a pressure cut off. Only, instead of the pressure cutoff controlling the electric motor like on an air set up, it would disconnect power to your gas generator. Then, as the system psi reduce due to usage, the switch on the accumulator would cycle and turn the generator back on until there was again enough pressure in the tank. The intermittant running of the gas generator should also help in its cooling.

Granted, HHO is more volatile than just plain H because you have the acceleration right there, but a properly sealed, vented and grounded system should be just as safe, or more, than the gasoline we use now.

Yes, I would not have this accumulator with HHO, as it is too volatile and would basically be a bomb. With the Hydrogen, as long as you don't put it under great pressure or make it too big, you can deal with the issue of storage.

P

Athopi · « **Reply #14 on:** June 07, 2008, 11:18:57 PM »

H storage isn't really a problem. There are large, carbon fiber tanks for H I've seen online rated to 3000psi. It would be interesting to see some research data at what pressures and volumes HHO storage is do-able at the volumes and pressures we need.

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Author Topic: Generating H and O separately (Read 10441 times)

22350

Generating H and O separately

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