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Author Topic: Switchable Magnets.  (Read 21932 times)

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2015, 12:41:36 AM »
Gearing does not amplify energy, it wastes it as heat due to friction.  That would simply add another loss to the system.

Bill


Remember that OU is obtained through *impedance matching* just like electrical circuits and impedance matching occurs
when the impedance of the source equals the impedance of the receiver. In a mechanical sense the distance moved in phase space being
equal is what we are looking for here, gear friction is small but unavoidable. torque after gearing is unchangeable in the device. If
Dinput <> Doutput then the problems are going to be obvious. If you've ever experience a mechanical fuel pump in a car being *poked
to death* by it's actuator rod you know what I'm talking about. The fuel pump is not using energy efficiently in that case.


 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2015, 12:41:36 AM »

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2015, 04:19:42 AM »
@Pirate88179,

Here's a picture of a "Magnet Chuck". What's the purpose of the "Allen Wrench" pictured along side it? It says "On" right above it. You're right, it appears many times stronger then the "Magnetic Base". Two of these Chucks should work the same way joined at the Allen Wrench, but deliver thousands of pounds in pull force to the "Rocker Arm" attracting plates.

The one on the bottom has a larger throw handle:

That Allen wrench serves the same purpose as the handle on the chuck in the bottom photo.  It mechanically moves the permanent mag array so the flux lines either line up, or they do not line up.

Don't get excited about the electro chucks.  We switched to them later on as they work forever and do not have to be rebuilt as there is no way for coolant to enter as there is no seal to fail around the handle because there is no handle.  These are just electromagnets instead of permanent mags and you need to supply a lot of power to them.  They come with their own (at least they did years ago) huge supply box which is placed near the machine.  Ours ran on 220/3 phase and had a very high amp draw although I forget what it was...60 amps or higher maybe.  There are no moving parts inside unlike the others we have been showing photos of.  The only draw back I ever saw was during a power failure, the grinders would shut down (but do not stop right away) and the electromag released the plates, and your parts, and holding plates, were destroyed.  The permanent mags still held.  Rare occurrence but it does happen.  We lost $20,000 worth of parts this way during a single power outage.  Luckily, no one was hurt from the flying parts and holding plates.

The longer handle is supplied on that model because of the effort it takes to switch on/off.  As I said, a longer lever would reduce this adding distance to the movement or maybe there are other ways of rotating that shaft inside the chuck.  But, you are right that there is a crap load of holding power to play with, so, maybe something can be done.

Bill

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Offline synchro1

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2015, 09:32:23 PM »
That Allen wrench serves the same purpose as the handle on the chuck in the bottom photo.  It mechanically moves the permanent mag array so the flux lines either line up, or they do not line up.

Don't get excited about the electro chucks.  We switched to them later on as they work forever and do not have to be rebuilt as there is no way for coolant to enter as there is no seal to fail around the handle because there is no handle.  These are just electromagnets instead of permanent mags and you need to supply a lot of power to them.  They come with their own (at least they did years ago) huge supply box which is placed near the machine.  Ours ran on 220/3 phase and had a very high amp draw although I forget what it was...60 amps or higher maybe.  There are no moving parts inside unlike the others we have been showing photos of.  The only draw back I ever saw was during a power failure, the grinders would shut down (but do not stop right away) and the electromag released the plates, and your parts, and holding plates, were destroyed.  The permanent mags still held.  Rare occurrence but it does happen.  We lost $20,000 worth of parts this way during a single power outage.  Luckily, no one was hurt from the flying parts and holding plates.

The longer handle is supplied on that model because of the effort it takes to switch on/off.  As I said, a longer lever would reduce this adding distance to the movement or maybe there are other ways of rotating that shaft inside the chuck.  But, you are right that there is a crap load of holding power to play with, so, maybe something can be done.

Bill

@Pirate88179,

This variety is manufactured also along with the Electro-Magnet type:

"Electro Permanent Magnetic (EPM) Chucks operate on momentary electrical power pulse for 3-4 seconds to Switch ON & the chuck remains ON till it is again given reverse electric pulse to switch OFF. Hence there is no chance of any accidents due to power failure".

Offline synchro1

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2015, 11:06:59 PM »
syncro1,
 
My computer is having keyboard problems, I wanted to get back quicker then is happening.
 
I have decided that mechanical methods using an N52 flapper magnetic may
be simpler to design and implement then hydraulic means.
 
(o) Take an N52 magnet in the "Radio Shack" form factor but magnetized it across it's second
longest side. Now mount it on a shaft positioned 2/3 the way on its smallest area face drilled through to
the other. This is a flapper magnet.
 
(o) Now remove the knobs and mount one-to-one gearing on the input shafts. Turn the
gears to right and the right unit's face turns on(n/s), turn the gears to the left and the left
(n/s) unit's face turns on, mount the above flapper magnet such that the flapper will follow the left
right face action.
 
(o) Now do gearing reduction such the D-input D-output require the same actuation distance. It may take multiple
shaft reductions to get them the same. Hopefully the output side still retains the greatest torque afterwards.
 
(o) Link (3) units together in a loop with linkages then stand back.
 
This should be calculation verifiable when torques (in in-lbs) are given in the specs.
Hydraulics are nice for accumulators, but you want to get rid of Rober Val (scale like, parallel) force linkages.
 
 
..S..MarkSCoffman

@MarkSCoffman,

                        I think your ideas are ingenious. I'm having a problem envisioning this one though. Can you upload a schematic? Do you think the "Magnet Flipper" would adapt to the (EPM) or, "Electro-Permanent Magnet Chuck"? This highly engineered advancement is much better then scarfing a solenoid to a pair of switch handles. There's a strong likelihood the switch force in the (EPM) chuck is independent of the holding force like in the "Noga" Magnet Base.


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2015, 02:32:15 AM »
@Pirate88179,

This variety is manufactured also along with the Electro-Magnet type:

"Electro Permanent Magnetic (EPM) Chucks operate on momentary electrical power pulse for 3-4 seconds to Switch ON & the chuck remains ON till it is again given reverse electric pulse to switch OFF. Hence there is no chance of any accidents due to power failure".


Ah, that is different from what used to be.  Ah...progress.  So, they simply replaced the manual handle with a motor that moves the permanent mags into and out of position.  If they sealed it up correctly this would be a good improvement.

Sorry I missed that in your post.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2015, 02:32:15 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2015, 03:23:24 AM »
Ah, that is different from what used to be.  Ah...progress.  So, they simply replaced the manual handle with a motor that moves the permanent mags into and out of position.  If they sealed it up correctly this would be a good improvement.

Sorry I missed that in your post.

Bill

@Pirate88179,

I wouldn't even know about it if you hadn't brought it up to begin with, so everyone owes you the debt of gratitude. Thanks again from me personally because the (EPM) chuck accelerates and strengthens the project by a "Quantum Leap".

I came up with a few more ideas. One; Involves a simple bladder or thin piston filled with a small amount of hydraulic fluid between the magnet chuck and the clamping plate Two; Involves a layer of Piezoelectric chips. Three; Involves sandwiching either of those two layers between two magnet chucks for twice the pressure.

The non-proportional relationship between the switch force and the holding strength that was confirmed by a "Noga" engineer and three other independent Amazon "Magnet Base" sellers may carry over to the (EPM) Chuck. I'll have to do more research to confirm that, but I believe it's reasonable to assume they act the same way. Anyone can see the "Free Energy Potential" here taken to the extreme.

Thousands of pounds of compression force would squirt a few ounces of hydraulic fluid into the Stratosphere through a small aperture. The surge could spin a "Pelton Wheel" like crazy for the three or fours seconds. Two Reciprocating "Magnet Chucks" could supply a constant surge. Plus mscoffman sounds like he's envisioned a new unique concept for garnishing output as well.

Two (EPM) chucks with one plate in between and two bladders on either side would draw fluid in one side and squirt it out the other with a constant velocity of thousands of pounds of pressure, at 3 or 4 second intervals, enough hydraulic pressure to tear the skin right off your hand.

A two way hydraulic cylinder, joined to a Scottish Yoke to impart rotary motion, along with a sump, could power a railroad locomotive with just the few watts of switch power from this kind of magnet chuck hydraulic pump. It would go slow but pull a train of box cars.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2015, 07:59:43 AM »
The two "Electro-Permanent Magnet Chucks" would need a set of springs on each side, to reposition the central steel magnetizer plate to the middle for the reciprocal attraction event. The bladder can only fill to the center and can't attach to the "Magnetizer Plate" and over fill to the other side, or the springs couldn't return the plate to the center from the excess fluid pressure. The bladder can't attach to the "Magnetizer Plate", and can only fill to the farthest expansion of the springs. The springs would draw the hydraulic fluid from the sump into the bladders.

Placing the springs inside the bladders and running guide pins through the "Magnetizer Plate" would probably work best.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 06:25:00 PM by synchro1 »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2015, 07:59:43 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2015, 09:28:10 PM »
Check out this "Double Magnet" (EPM) Chuck:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LItQdWzI2Og

This twin combination results in four compression areas operated by one controller command. The Job clamps to the magnets and the magnets simultaneously clamp to the dimple base plate. These kind of "Double Magnet" (EPM) chucks can be ganged up in series to operate not just two, but any number, off a single controller command! "Magnets can be Daisy Chain connected so that only one cable needs to be connected to the controller and the magnets are connected amongst themselves". The second magnet is simply connected to the first in the video, and only the first is connected to the controller. This "Double Magnet" (EPM) Chuck yields the same non-proportional switch power to holding force as the "Magnet Base". This kind of switchable magnet may well be many thousands of times overunity; If only the holding force can be converted to hydraulic pressure or piezoelectric potential! This particular product holds more promise then anything I've seen so far.

Think about it! Suppose we can multiply the holding force of these "Double (EPM) Chucks" by a limitless amount with a fixed amount switch power! There has to be a free lunch to benefit from somewhere in that non-proportion, right?

Offline synchro1

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2015, 12:05:42 AM »
Extending two dimple plates over the "Double (EPM)" edges and widening the areas would allow space for huge "Piezoelectric Bricks", one on each side. Tungsten Carbide can be cold molded from powder and shaped into large cubes, or purchased in pre-manufactured shapes. These kinds of cubes would generate power both on the compression and release cycle. This would be a solid state power plant that could scale up to any COP depending on the number of "Piezo Chucks" in the "Daisy Chain". This is my finished design.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2015, 03:45:38 AM »
Extending two dimple plates over the "Double (EPM)" edges and widening the areas would allow space for huge "Piezoelectric Bricks", one on each side. Tungsten Carbide can be cold molded from powder and shaped into large cubes, or purchased in pre-manufactured shapes. These kinds of cubes would generate power both on the compression and release cycle. This would be a solid state power plant that could scale up to any COP depending on the number of "Piezo Chucks" in the "Daisy Chain". This is my finished design.

Now you are talking.  I thought about this years ago when I discovered, quite painfully, that large pizos release energy when heated, and then also release the same energy when cooled.  Same with compression I believe.  You could compress the living Sh*t out of some large pizo blocks between two
6" x 18" chucks!  Compress/release...on/off...etc.

This still may not be feasible as I would have thought it would have been done long ago...however...maybe no one thought of it?  Of all of the things I have seen here on this site, this seems to be the most original and, I can not supply a reason that it can't work, other than someone should have tried this already.  Maybe they did...maybe not.  I also like the hydraulics idea.  There would be a tremendous amount of compression between 2 of these devices.  The movement would be very fast as well.

Really good thinking guys.

Bill

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2015, 03:45:38 AM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2015, 11:56:49 PM »
I remember playing with one of these magnetic welding clamps at a welding shop and I thought there was a lot of force required to turn it on and off. That would have to be measured to check for excess work. Then releasing something gains you nothing. Its the attraction where the work done counts and the problem with that is the further you are
away the weaker the force. That feature of magnets puts the potentential work done
on the low side.

But this was my first sight of a truely valid way to turn a magnets force on and off - actually diverting it so it seems it was turned on and off.

If you have one of these then get some measurements and then we'll know if its OU.
I'd really like to see it.

Norman

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2015, 12:47:54 AM »
Here is a very, very crude drawing of what the inside of one of those chucks looks like.
I hate trying to draw using my cheap mouse!

The handle simply moves the entire unit inside toward that empty space (Using a cam/dog attached to the handle shaft) and lines
up the magnets in the base with the steel strips on the top plate. Magnet is now on.

Cranking the handle in the other direction, of course, moves the unit inside so the magnets line up with the brass strips and...no
magnetic attraction any more.

The more I think about this, the more I remember the forces needed to slide that assembly inside, even on a new chuck.  (An older chuck gets much harder)

That handle on the 6" x 18" chuck is about 12" long so, I think it took about 35-40 foot pounds to move it.  We had several women machinists and, they always had to get one of the guys to move that handle for them as they could not do it.

Bill


Offline Spirit

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2015, 02:15:27 AM »

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2015, 03:02:23 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG-01vY36W0

Spirit:

Excellent find!  Now everyone can see how these are made and can forget my very poor drawing.  I actually have owned about 6 of those smaller Suburban Tool chucks.  Several of them were set up as a sine bar, for grinding angles.

35 pounds of holding power/sq. inch. so, an 8X18" chuck would have 5,040 pounds of holding power!  (I knew it was a lot!)  Our 12x36" chuck would have had 15,120 pounds of holding power!!!!

So now I see that, yes, it is very hard to turn these off/on but, with that many pounds of holding power, surely something could be mechanically or hydraulically worked out and you should have a lot left over to spare.

Spirit, thank you for finding this and posting it.

Bill

PS  I see they are now using stainless steel instead of brass for the dead zones for the flux.  Probably to save money.

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Offline PIH123

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Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2015, 03:47:11 AM »
Hi Syncro,

I finally got around to making some measurements.
(promised in the other thread - An Ingenious Way to Turn Neodymium Permanent Magnets On and Off - Magswitch. . .)
I had a welding project going on and didn't want to disassemble the earth clamp.


Details.
Magswitch 300 amp ground clamp part no WG300MS

I used a spring balance to find the force (torque) required to open/close the magnet.

Max required (towards the end of the closing stroke)
5.4 lbs at 1.75 inc dia.
So about 0.4 lb ft.

Same for both Open/Close. (except that the max on open is near the beginning of the stroke)



Next, I mounted the MagSwich in my drill press.
This was so I could carefully position it near the workpiece using the vernier action of the (expensive) drill press.


1st, using a 1.04 lb wrench lying flat and unsecured on the drill press table,
the magswitch in the on position, needed to get to 0.23 inches before the wrench was lifted into contact.

2nd, using a 48 lb tractor (mild steel) tractor weight lying flat and unsecured on the drill press table,
the magswitch in the on position, needed to get to 0.05 inches before the weight was lifted into contact.



Are there any other tests you would like ?

Thanks

Pete

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Switchable Magnets.
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2015, 03:47:11 AM »

 

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