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Author Topic: An interesting experiment in electrolysis  (Read 9329 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« on: March 10, 2014, 11:46:56 AM »
 
Any thoughts on this experiment?

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Offline profitis

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 01:00:08 PM »
yeah..the caustic soda that rapidly forms at the cathode and hypochlorous acid that forms at the anode both chow the wood up and dissolve it into solution in the same way that they would chow human skin up


Offline profitis

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 01:13:52 PM »
if the guy uses concrete or plastic then its probably some capacitance forming across it which then splits water..

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 01:40:13 PM »

if the guy uses concrete or plastic then its probably some capacitance forming across it which then splits water..


 
Thanks for the reply.   That's what makes it interesting.  Even if you keep a glass or plastic material between the electrodes, the ions react among themselves on glass/plastic surface releasing gases.
 
Usually ions donot react among themselves.  They react only with metals or any other dissolvable materials.
 
By developing this method if it is made possible that the ions react among themselves in a large scale, will it not be a easy method of releasing hydrogen from water in large scale and at reduced power consumption?
 


Offline profitis

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 06:10:48 PM »
could be.we would have to do the gas volume/coulombs/voltage measurements of course.but remember there will be increased resistance between the electrodes if you restrict ionic flow.also, the ph will dramaticaly increase at the cathode and decrease at the anode with the diffusion restriction blockage requiring more voltage input over time unless its done slowly.its better to use just plain caustic soda in solution as the electrolyte to avoid dramatic ph shifts and to avoid nasty chlorine gas at the anode.but i have a question that i would like to ask you kiran:what would happen if we place an electret into saltwater?? The static voltage would be there,the electrons might be supplied by electrolyte itself in eddies? Would gas bubbles be visible on an electret?

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 06:10:48 PM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 03:10:54 AM »
If you drop an electret directly in salt water,  ions may react with it neutralising its charge and you may see gas bubbles from electret only till its charge is neutralised.  I don't think that an electret can hold its charge permanently as in analogy with magnets which hold magnetic fields permanently irresspective of their external actions.

Instead,  if you keep a thin glass tube filled with electrolytic solution between two oppositely charged plates connected to a very high voltage source,  the negative ions move towards positive plate and get concentrated on one inner side of the tube. Similarly positive ions get concentrated on the other inner side of the tube.  These denseley concentrated ions will react among themselves releasing gases from both inner sides of the tube.  Since there is no current flow from external source, there will not be any power consumption from external source.  You may have to account  only for leakage of charges from plates.

But is it practically possible to maintain a high voltage static electric charges between two plates?  My knowledge in electricity is limited.
 
Also you may have to first find out the break down or critical static voltge at which ions in the solution start moving towards oppositely charged external plates.
 
 

Offline profitis

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 10:48:05 AM »
lets see: h2o> 2h+ + o +2e- and 2h20 + 2e- > h2 + 2oh-. Theoreticly there may be electrolysis at the rim edges of the electret where the electrostatic differentials meet and perhaps are able to propel electrons donated by the electrolyte cyclicly(electrons wont travel through the insulator).it would necessitate a breach of kelvin law though so one facet of the electret may cool and the adjacent facet warm up.i imagine the rate would be limited by recombination speed of o into o2 and adjacent h into h2.the electrostatic potential of the electret would matter too ofcourse i imagine..mm.so the goal is to use voltage without the need for current and simply force the electrons originaly donated to the oxygen by the hydrogen backward using a kelvin breach heat sink mm.. What you can try is simply apply a voltage(no current) to two graphite electrodes in saltwater that are very very close to each other and check if bubbles begin to emerge.check if bubbles emerge more the more closer the electrodes are

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 10:48:05 AM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 11:59:34 AM »

So the goal is to use voltage without the need for current .
 

 
I agree.  That is the key!

A simple idea would be to just cover the entire electret with a thin insulating material (may be a PVC film) and drop it into conducting water (ie., few drops of acid or salt is added to water to make it conducting).  H+ and OH- ions react among themselves on respective sides of the electret resulting in continuous outflow of Hydrogen and oxygen gases from the water.
 
If it really works, it would solve all problems related to shortage and clean energy.  Why sofar nobody has thought about it?   Is there any problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electret
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electret_microphone
 
 

What you can try is simply apply a voltage(no current) to two graphite electrodes in saltwater that are very very close to each other and check if bubbles begin to emerge.check if bubbles emerge more the more closer the electrodes are


 
I have tried it with two carbon electrodes removed from dry cells. The problem here is, it is not possible to apply only voltage without current.  When voltage is applied between electrodes keeping them very close,  even a meagre voltage will cause the current to flow between electrodes since at very close distance the resistance to flow of current is very less.
 
As you said in your earlier reply,  using an electret would be the best option.
 
 

Offline Newton II

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 01:41:16 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electret


Quote from the above wiki page :

"However, when an electret is moved with respect to a magnetic pole, a force is felt which acts perpendicular to the magnetic field, pushing the electret along a path 90 degrees to the expected direction of 'push' as would be felt with another magnet"

The above information looks very interesting to me. 

As per general understanding,  only electric charges moving within inside a metal or a material produce a magnetic field. But the above statement means that an electrically charged material as a whole when set in motion will also produce magnetic field.  If not it cannot experience repulsion from a permanent magnet as stated in the above wiki quote.

The strength of magnetic field produced by an electret in motion may depend on the strength of its electric field.  So, if you charge a material to a very heigh potential and set it in motion, will it produce a mega magnetic field?  Which is a magnetic field with terrific strength causing philadelphia effect? (any person entering into such a magnetic field would vanish off into nothing!!)

Can some genious answer this question?

 

Offline MarkE

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 02:02:29 PM »
Quote from the above wiki page :

"However, when an electret is moved with respect to a magnetic pole, a force is felt which acts perpendicular to the magnetic field, pushing the electret along a path 90 degrees to the expected direction of 'push' as would be felt with another magnet"

The above information looks very interesting to me. 

As per general understanding,  only electric charges moving within inside a metal or a material produce a magnetic field. But the above statement means that an electrically charged material as a whole when set in motion will also produce magnetic field.  If not it cannot experience repulsion from a permanent magnet as stated in the above wiki quote.

The strength of magnetic field produced by an electret in motion may depend on the strength of its electric field.  So, if you charge a material to a very heigh potential and set it in motion, will it produce a mega magnetic field?  Which is a magnetic field with terrific strength causing philadelphia effect? (any person entering into such a magnetic field would vanish off into nothing!!)

Can some genious answer this question?

 
If only charges moving inside metal conductors gave rise to magnetic fields then there would be no such thing as radio.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 02:02:29 PM »
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Offline Newton II

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 02:37:55 PM »
If only charges moving inside metal conductors gave rise to magnetic fields then there would be no such thing as radio.


Can you please elaborate it?  Is there any charged body in radio which moves as a whole?


Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 03:07:30 PM »

"However, when an electret is moved with respect to a magnetic pole, a force is felt which acts perpendicular to the magnetic field, pushing the electret along a path 90 degrees to the expected direction of 'push' as would be felt with another magnet"


It will also lead to another interesting consequence.

Fix one strong magnet at the bottom of a glass tube with only North pole facing up. Drop an electret from the top of the tube.  When electret falls down it will be in motion hence produces a magnetic field.  When it comes close to the bottom fixed magnet, it will be repelled by the magnet in upward direction.  The repelled electret cannot move upwards indefinitely hence it stops at some point thereby loosing its magnetic field.  When it loses its magnetic field, it will not be repelled by bottom magnet.  Hence it falls again only to get repelled again!

So, you have a ever bumping electret!!!
 
 


Offline Newton II

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 04:27:55 PM »

So, you have a ever bumping electret!!!



Don't get excited!   It will become ever bumping electret only if repulsion takes the electret to a higher height than the initial fall or atleast to the same height of initial fall.   But practically it will not happen.  With every repulsion the height of fall reduces and finally the electret comes to rest on the bottom magnet.   A resting electret will not produce magnetic field.  So no repulsion.

So,  you will not have a ever bum-ping electret!!!


Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 03:00:59 AM »

So,  you will not have a ever bum-ping electret!!!


Forget about bum-pinging electret!   Suppose if you suspend the electret like a pendulam above a fixed permanent magnet at the bottom and set the pendulam electret in motion, where it will stop?  Because when it moves towards its equilibrium position at centre,  it will be repelled by the bottom magnet.  An oscillating pendulam will also not rise to a greater height unless it describes a very wild swing.
 
 


Offline profitis

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 10:09:25 AM »
yes @kiran many questions need answering with regard to electrostatic electrolysis.since i know for a fact that karpen devices can cycle gases and electric charge down electrostatic contact potential gradients then im certain that theres ways to split water electrostaticly too.for example,lets take a piece of gold and a piece platinum in electrolyte under vacuum(no oxygen present) and contact them together> there will now be a charge deficit on one piece and excess on the other piece which has to induce some electrolysis,probably very little due to small contact potential difference but some indeed.we simply de-contact the two pieces and wait for re-establishment of equilibrium before re-contacting them again for another electrolysis burst.substances that have much larger contact potential differences should liberate more gases but will have to be totaly corrosion resistant.

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Re: An interesting experiment in electrolysis
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 10:09:25 AM »

 

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