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Discussion board help and admin topics => Half Baked Ideas => Topic started by: nightwynd on May 07, 2006, 04:04:21 PM

Hey guys, stumbled across this one, and it may just have some merit to it... http://www.evert.de/eft721e.htm
Badically its a design that uses a flywheel to turn a generator that powers the motor to spin the flywheel... Now normally the laws of physics say that this should just not work, you also cannot deny the fact that it takes LESS energy to keep a flywheel spinning than it does to get it to speed...so just maybe this one would work once it gets up to speed...
I.E. Flywheel takes 50W of energy to keep spinning a 60W generator = 10W net gain in a closed loop...
Please feel free to shoot this idea full of holes :D I find it interesting that the only one of these that supposedly worked was the one using a motorcycle wheel and shoddy craftsmanship/components...maybe unit vibration has something to do with it...
o.O Idea: Combine this with a PMM...

Just a quick question: I remember reading online somewhere that someone had achieved a PMM, but the device had to be manually started up to 500 or 1000 RPM before the magnets took over accelerating the load. If I can find the info again, i'll post the link...Has anyone ever really explored what happens when you combine flywheel physics with permanent magnets? Would it concievably be possable for a flyweel to push a PMM past the cog point and create additional acceleration? Is the solution so simplet that everyone overlooked it  are we trying to build these too light?...
2 cents cashed in for now...

I think it's a great idea. In fact I've been thinking of building one, I have most of the parts.
Here is a link I found that mabe useful
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~mpj01/ise2grp/energystorage_report/node4.html

It seems that everywhere I look, someone has posted the equations of how much energy you can get OUT of a flywheel...but nobody has the formula for how much energy it takes to get the thing wound up in the first place... According to Newton's laws it takes less energy to keep an object moving than it takes to GET it moving...in the case of a flywheel, just how much energy are we talking about? I believe that this formula would be the single most helpful thing to the cause of an overunity flywheel generator. If we know how much energy it takes to KEEP it spinning, we can then figure out how much of a load we can take off of it to power an electric motor to keep it going...if anyone can find this formula please post it here!
Limoman7  keep us posted on your progress!! I especially am most interested in how you plan on the overunity aspect...

I definitely sense that a working model should be possible. I found the following description of a similar device that sounds a lot like Dennis Lee's hummingbird / sundance motor generator:
"Take a typical 1725 RPM electric motor that is found in many central air units or dryers or wash machines in America. These electrical motors typically produce about .5 horsepower. Now, extend its shaft out about 2 meters. Make a brace for the motor to sit on and bolt it down so that the shaft is sticking upwards twards the sky. Now place a large light wheel (perhaps a metal disk cut out of an aluminum metal sheet. Aluminum is a pop metal that is perfect for working with magnets) at the end of this 2 meter shaft ( making sure that you drill the hole in the very center of the disk where the shaft will connect). The circumference of the wheel/disk should be 600 centimeters . Now place a strong Neodymium magnet with the demensions of 1 cm x 2 cm x 10 cm at the edge of the disk which means the magnet is rectangular in shape and the narrow edge of this rectangular magnet is flush with the edge of the disk and the other end of the magnet is pointing twards the shaft of the disk. Drill 2 holes in each magnet and the disk area under each magnet and bolt them down to the disk. Space each magnet about 30cm apart from one another. This then means that you have 18 magnets now bolted to the disk. Now get two more aluminum disks of equal size. These two disks will not be turning. Place one of those disks under the turning disk and the other one over the top of the turning disk. Each of these disks will have a larger hole cut in their center so that the motor shaft WILL NOT contact them. The only disk that will be actually bolted to the shaft is the center disk with all the magnets on it. So you'll have to brace the lower disk and the upper disk into place with a strudy brace you'll make your own way. Now produce small cardboard boxes the exact demensions of the magnets only these small boxes will be hollow. Now place a copper coil (maybe 20 gauge wire) into the box with it's loose end sticking out the outer edge of the box. Since the box is rectangular in shape another coil will fit into the same box for a total of two copper coils. Glue each coil to the bottom of the box with each coil space from the other about 4 cms. Each little box is glued to the lower disk 30 cms apart from one another so that there are now 18 boxes glued to the lower disk. These boxes are glued to the UPPER end of the lower disk. Now do the same with the upper disk only the boxes are glued to the BOTTOM end of the upper disk. Now take the copper coil's open end of each coil and run them to one main wire (about 16 gauge wire) and run that main wire to a breaker. Do the same with the upper disk coils wiring it's coiled open ends to that same lower disk main 16 guage wire. Now finally adjust the lower and upper non moving disks as close as you can to the center disk without the boxes touching the magnets. Now tighten the non moving disks into place. The idea is this; the electric motor will start the center disk spinning at 1725 RPM but since the magnets are so far out on the outer edge of the disk, their speed will be far faster at the same rpm as the shaft. As the magnets pass each coil at that rpm electricity is created that is far more than the electricity being used to run the motor from the electricity from the wall outlet so the breaker will then switch the motor's power supply from the wall outlet to the magnets generated electricity (through a transformer converting the current to AC of course) and the extra electricity far beyond that needed to turn the device is used to power your home, your car, a field propulsion device."
Taken from: http://groups.msn.com/VonBraunPhyiscs/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=370&LastModified=4675534554372565638

It seems that everywhere I look, someone has posted the equations of how much energy you can get OUT of a flywheel...but nobody has the formula for how much energy it takes to get the thing wound up in the first place... According to Newton's laws it takes less energy to keep an object moving than it takes to GET it moving...in the case of a flywheel, just how much energy are we talking about? I believe that this formula would be the single most helpful thing to the cause of an overunity flywheel generator. If we know how much energy it takes to KEEP it spinning, we can then figure out how much of a load we can take off of it to power an electric motor to keep it going...if anyone can find this formula please post it here!
The answer is quite simple.
from http://www.upei.ca/~physics/p261/projects/flywheel1/flywheel1.htm
Stored energy = sum of kinetic energy of individual mass elements that comprise the flywheel
Kinetic Energy = 1/2*I*w2 , where
I = moment of inertia (ability of an obeject to resist changes in its rotational velocity)
w = rotational velocity (rpm)
I = k*M*R2 (M=mass; R=radius); k = inertial constant (depends on shape)
Inertial constants for different shapes:
Wheel loaded at rim (bike tire); k = 1
solid disk of uniform thickness; k = 1/2
solid sphere; k = 2/5
spherical shell; k = 2/3
thin rectangular rod; k = 1/2
Use the above to calculate the energy stored in the flywheel. (The formula looks a little different, but it is essentially energy = mass * velocity squared in a rotating form)
It took exactly that much energy to get the flywheel up to speed. (in reality, it took more than that, because of the losses in the system.)
Bottom line  there is no energy in a flywheel that you didn't put there. And when you take energy out, it is no longer there.

Sorry 'bout the late reply here, havent' visited half baked ideas for a while :D
The formulae that you posted there Jake are the same ones that I've seen other places...that's the formula for how much energy is stored into the flywheel...but what I'm wondering is just how much energy it takes to KEEP a flywheel spinning at a current speed.

Well I'm rather late responding as well, but I just found this forum...
but what I'm wondering is just how much energy it takes to KEEP a flywheel spinning at a current speed.
Not much, providing the flywheel isn't attached to a load. Basically all that must be overcome is friction (this includes wind/bearing drag etc.). A body in motion tends to stay in motion... ;)
However, you must realize that a rotating flywheel is much like a battery. It can only store energy which is supplied getting it up to speed (as mentioned above). Once you connect it to a load (no matter how tiny), a bit of the energy is lost on every revolution.
So... If even you have a machine that will power itself thru 99.99% of a revolution, it will draw the other .01% from the spinning flywheel and this energy must be replaced or the machine will eventually slow to a stop.
Now if you have a large power stroke such as a onecylinder 4cycle engine provides, a flywheel is a great way to store energy from the combustion. This stored energy is then expended as momentum to help the engine "coast" through the ensuing exhaust, intake and compression strokes  and also to help smooth out the engine's power output. But it doesn't create or multiply energy. ;)
Cheers, Mac

Hello Jake,
I think there is a mistake in your calculation:
w, angular velocity is not measured in rpm.
What I found is w=2*pi*f
f is the frequency.
Frequency of a wheel means, as i understood
revolution per second performed
and is measured in Hertz ( Period / revolution per second ).
A second thing:
the formula is E= ( 1/2 ) * I * w? ( not w2 )

yeah, that would be more easy to under stand, then lets say , a magnet motor, and some mystical electric double flux, yeah, it you had a small wheel, it would spin up quickly,compared to a big wheel,
edit,
hey why not stick some permanent magnets to take load of the motor a bit, the flux will help push the fly wheel faster,
hehe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqwuF8yILWI ;)

Sir
The open source community has members globally ,
And could perhaps arrange a test at his facility to help his claim get more
Scientific credence?
Are you in contact?
Or?
Respectfully
Chet K
Ps
I have already reached out to a few members in India about this !

Hello to All,
Running Lüling Permanent Magnet Motor (PMM) with Flywheel...1966
You could see the original 35mm footage in 4K UHD here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT_UIpbFKc0)
Cheers
Ufopolitics