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Author Topic: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.  (Read 4792 times)

Low-Q

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Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« on: June 19, 2010, 02:38:35 AM »
Imagine you have a buoyancy wheel with several spokes - let's say 10 spokes. On each of the spokes ends there is a hollow container that is filled with clean water. Each container have an opening at the outer end. This whole wheel is now always under clean water.

Now! We apply a DC current through the clean water inside those containers at the bottom, and those on one side of the wheel, and let the DC current flow until the containers is almost on the top.

Well! What will happen? The containers at the bottom, and all of those which is on one side of the wheel, will be filled with HHO, and therefor water will be displaced. HHO is a gas that is even lighter than air. Now, one side of the wheel is lighter than the other side, because one side is filled with HHO, and the other side is filled with water. This will force the wheel to rotate - no doubt about that.
Each time a container almost reach the top, the gas will escape from the opening, and water will pour back into the containers. We save the gas and ignite it to boost the wheel so we will get back most of the energy we spent to make the electrolysis of water.
Also the HHO gas displace 800 times the the volume of the same weight in water. 1 liter of water gives 800 liters of HHO. 800 liters of displaced water has a potential to provide a great torque on a wheel!

What we know, is that there is a connection between how much gas we produced (The potential energy we store in HHO) and how much energy we applied to the water to make HHO. But is there a connection between the mass of the water (its potential energy in the mass of water) and the energy applied in the electrolysis to convert water into HHO?
I mean, if we anyway gets back most of the energy (Even only 50% back) in the electrolysis process by igniting the HHO produced, there should be literally loads of excess potential energy that we can harness in the buoyancy wheel!

What do you think guys? Need drawings?

I will also post this under gravity powered devices.

Vidar

sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2023, 12:08:16 AM »


this concept has been cooking for quite some time. minor experimentation has been done. results unknown


i asked OpenAI about this question. in 2 parts, and here is it's reply:


""how to extract energy from the difference between buoyant force and gravitational force using phase transition""




ANSWER:
""One way to extract energy from the difference between buoyant force and gravitational force using phase transition is through a process called "buoyancy-driven power generation".
 This process takes advantage of the fact that some materials, such as certain types of fluids, undergo a phase transition (e.g., from liquid to gas) when heated or pressurized.
The basic idea behind buoyancy-driven power generation is to use the difference in density between a heated or pressurized fluid and a cooler, less dense fluid to create a flow of the fluid, which can then be used to turn a turbine and generate electricity.
Here's a step-by-step process for using phase transition to extract energy from the difference between buoyant force and gravitational force:





Start with a fluid that undergoes a phase transition when heated or pressurized, such as a refrigerant or a working fluid used in a heat engine.
1: Heat or pressurize the fluid to cause it to undergo a phase transition from a liquid to a gas.
2: As the gas rises due to its lower density, it will encounter a cooler, less dense fluid, such as air or water.
3: The difference in density between the hot, pressurized gas and the cooler fluid will create a buoyant force that will cause the gas to rise even further.
4: Use the upward flow of the gas to turn a turbine, which will generate electricity.
5: Once the gas has cooled or lost pressure, it will condense back into a liquid and flow back down to the bottom of the system, where it can be heated or pressurized again to repeat the process.


By continually heating and pressurizing the fluid to create a phase transition, you can generate a continuous flow of electricity using the difference in density between the hot gas and the cooler fluid. This process can be scaled up or down depending on the amount of energy you need to extract.""





""how to extract energy from the difference between buoyant force and gravitational force using phase transition from water electrolysis""

ANSWER:

Water electrolysis is a process in which an electrical current is passed through water to separate it into its constituent elements, hydrogen and oxygen.
 To extract energy from the difference between buoyant force and gravitational force using phase transition from water electrolysis, you can follow these steps:
1: Set up an electrolysis cell consisting of two electrodes (one positive, one negative) immersed in water.
2: Apply a voltage to the electrodes to create an electric field, which will cause the water molecules to split into hydrogen ions (H+) and hydroxide ions (OH-).
3: The hydrogen ions will be attracted to the negative electrode (cathode), where they will gain electrons and form hydrogen gas (H2). The hydroxide ions will be attracted to the positive electrode (anode), where they will lose electrons and form oxygen gas (O2).
4: As the hydrogen and oxygen gases are produced, they will rise due to their lower density compared to the surrounding water.
5: Collect the hydrogen and oxygen gases separately and store them for later use.
6: To extract energy from the difference between buoyant force and gravitational force, you can use the hydrogen gas to power a fuel cell. In a fuel cell, hydrogen gas is combined with oxygen gas to produce electricity and water.
7: The electricity generated by the fuel cell can be used to power various devices or stored in a battery for later use.
8: The water produced by the fuel cell can be recycled back into the electrolysis cell to continue the process.


By using water electrolysis to generate hydrogen gas and then using the hydrogen gas to power a fuel cell, you can extract energy from the difference between buoyant force and gravitational force. This process can be scaled up or down depending on the amount of energy you need to extract.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2023, 07:10:22 PM »
 Low Q

As most here are aware, all processes, motors, generators and so on operate at 100% efficiency if all of the outputs are taken into consideration (otherwise or normally, a
percentage of the outputs are considered as losses). Heat is the form of energy most
often lost in those devices and processes. Heat is also one of the humanly most desirable
and used forms of energy.

If electrolysis when conducted at some higher pressure (under water for example)
becomes less efficient in terms of gas quantity produced, than is the gas quantity
produced by electrolysis conducted at some lower pressure (sea level air pressure for
example), it is likely because more heat is produced in place of gas.

In either situation, the equality of the input to output, 1:1 or unity, remains the same (all outputs considered). More gas but less heat or more heat but less gas.

If our goal is to heat our house.  When the H and O are burned the heat produce by its
burning combined with the heat generated during the electrolysis are very nearly a 100%
efficient conversion of electricity to heat.  As so also, are conventional resistive electric
heaters.

The gases produced are more buoyant in water than in air. They have a greater upward force
in water than in air. Therefore more energy can be extracted per unit of distance of rise than
can be extracted per unit of distance of rise in air. This is good in that it allows for a more compact device (not as tall).

Cloxxki

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2023, 10:27:23 PM »
Low Q

As most here are aware, all processes, motors, generators and so on operate at 100% efficiency if all of the outputs are taken into consideration (otherwise or normally, a
percentage of the outputs are considered as losses). Heat is the form of energy most
often lost in those devices and processes. Heat is also one of the humanly most desirable
and used forms of energy.

If electrolysis when conducted at some higher pressure (under water for example)
becomes less efficient in terms of gas quantity produced, than is the gas quantity
produced by electrolysis conducted at some lower pressure (sea level air pressure for
example), it is likely because more heat is produced in place of gas.

In either situation, the equality of the input to output, 1:1 or unity, remains the same (all outputs considered). More gas but less heat or more heat but less gas.

If our goal is to heat our house.  When the H and O are burned the heat produce by its
burning combined with the heat generated during the electrolysis are very nearly a 100%
efficient conversion of electricity to heat.  As so also, are conventional resistive electric
heaters.

The gases produced are more buoyant in water than in air. They have a greater upward force
in water than in air. Therefore more energy can be extracted per unit of distance of rise than
can be extracted per unit of distance of rise in air. This is good in that it allows for a more compact device (not as tall).
i'm not convinced a pingpong ball sized bumble of hydrogen will allow for all that more more energy extracted underwater than a same size bubble of air. Both are tiny compared to the mass they displace.
All the work you need to do to bring that air bubble down under water to "start" the process, you also need to invest for the H over a zero pressure or even a 1 atmosphere environment.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2023, 12:00:04 AM »
i'm not convinced a pingpong ball sized bumble of hydrogen will allow for all that more more energy extracted underwater than a same size bubble of air. Both are tiny compared to the mass they displace.
All the work you need to do to bring that air bubble down under water to "start" the process, you also need to invest for the H over a zero pressure or even a 1 atmosphere environment.

"If electrolysis when conducted at some higher pressure (under water for example)
becomes less efficient in terms of gas quantity (MASS IN A GAS STATE)  produced, than is the gas quantity (MASS IN A GAS STATE) produced by electrolysis conducted at some lower pressure (sea level air pressure for example), it is likely because more heat is produced in place of gas.

"In either situation, the equality of the input to output, 1:1 or unity, remains the same (all outputs considered). More gas but less heat or more heat but less gas."

UNDER WATER "more energy can be extracted PER UNIT OF DISTANCE OF RISE than can be extracted per unit of distance of rise in air. This is good in that it allows for a more compact device (not as tall)."

BUOYANCY IS CAUSED BY DENSITY DIFFERENCES. 

THE TOTAL ENERGY AVAILABLE FROM GAS RISEING IS DUE TO DENSITY DIFFERENCES

BUT ALSO THE SIZE OF THE BUBBLE or THE AMOUNT OF SUBSTANCE RISEING AS GAS (HOW MUCH or MASS or THE AMOUNT OF SUBSTANCE RISEING).

NEXT, IS THE DISTANCE THE GAS RISES.
 

sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2023, 09:13:27 PM »
The point here is that AFTER we extract energy from the phase change
(Liquid to Gas)
We can ALSO extract energy from the stoichiometric chemical mixture
(H+H+O)
Be it in a combustion engine, open flame (10kF), or fuel cell, etc.


We can take this a step further, if your concern is thermal dissipation
Wrap it in peltier/seebeck converters to salvage your heat losses.


The entire system can stay at 1ATM if you choose, just dont put a lid on it




At the very least we improve the efficiency of the paired fuel cells by the buoyant factor


If the system is efficient enough, using both forms of energy is mathematically coherent to OU design.
You can have a (nearly) efficient fuel cell system by itself
You can have a (nearly) efficient phase change buoyancy system by itself


Either of these, by themselves, can stay within the bounds of the thermodynamic perspective.
But NOT both in the same system.
Using both, driven by the same input (it is equivalent in either case)
You double the output at the same cost.
Which allows (mathematically) for a maximum C.O.P. Of 2 (minus losses)
This is for buoyancy in AIR! Greater efficiency can be obtained by using liquid buoyancy.

Electrolysis of water into HHO allows for both situations
you have phase change as well as a fuel cell gas mixture


There is NO law of physics that states we lose energy by letting our hydrogen rise to a higher altitude before converting it back into electricity.


Pressure effects the RATE, not the efficiency so much.
When you bring the oxygen supply with you, altitude doesnt matter.
Look at the numbers for fuel cell efficiency at different altitudes.
Then look at the change in height
And the change in mass density (gas to water)
AT THOSE HEIGHTS (E=mgh)


The math is clear





sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2023, 09:57:23 PM »
Low Q]

If electrolysis when conducted at some higher pressure (under water for example)
becomes less efficient in terms of gas quantity produced, than is the gas quantity
produced by electrolysis conducted at some lower pressure (sea level air pressure for
example), it is likely because more heat is produced in place of gas.




This is false


It has more to do with fuel cell design than separation of the molecules under pressure
cells designed to operate at higher pressures can still meet efficiency standards.
Cells designed for lower pressures perform poorly at higher pressures.


And also, most freelance experimenters fail to account for the pressure of the HHO obtained.
In the higher pressure case, the gas output is at a higher pressure/density.
The observed numbers should be Molar, not volumetric. This is a common mistake, even at respectable institutions.


That aside: the situation we are talking about (a reasonable tank of water)
 Pressure at any manageable height for a device, is still ~ 1 ATM
the same can be said for any (reasonable) altitude in air.




Then we have the reconversion: fuel cells operate faster under higher pressures.
Which was why high pressure cells were developed
(mainly for automobiles, which require higher current)
not an efficiency issue, but it’s important to understand what type of fuel cell you are testing
and to keep those cells under ideal operation conditions.


Often we find that cooling the system (even with additional cost of cooling) can increase overall efficiency of the cell in some cases.


Temperature has a greater impact than pressure


Electrolysis performs better under heat
It takes less electrical energy to separate the molecules through electrolysis when the water is heated. In this scenario, heat is not considered a loss, entirely. Part of the heat is considered a gain. (see Ideal Gas Law)






This is not hard to test and make sure that our laws pf physics are still maintained.
There is only 1 of two outcomes.
1) our physics are correct and this system is (max) COP=2
or
2) out physics is faulty and we need to correct our equations.


Simple experiment:


2 fuel cells, 1 baloon, 1 roll of kite string, 1 generator


Instructions:


1: attach the roll of kite string to the generator shaft


2: Turn on fuel cell 1, and fill baloon enough to lift fuel cell 2


3: let generator produce energy until your kite string runs out


4: turn on fuel cell 2 and reclaim your electricity


5: get out of the way, because theres going to be
        a crater where it impacted the earth and broke thermodynamics.


















Willy

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2023, 11:34:13 PM »
Electrolysis is some times done with the production vessel sealed. 
This is can be a more efficient way to pressurize the gas, rather than
pressurizing it later by means of for example, electric motors and compressors,
which have their own inefficiencies / losses.

Read- first IF below

"If electrolysis when conducted at some higher pressure (under water for example)
becomes less efficient in terms of gas quantity (MASS IN A GAS STATE)  produced, than is the gas quantity (MASS IN A GAS STATE) produced by electrolysis conducted at some lower pressure (sea level air pressure for example), it is likely because more heat is produced in place of gas.

"In either situation, the equality of the input to output, 1:1 or unity, remains the same (all outputs considered). More gas but less heat or more heat but less gas."

                                Unity, before buoyancy gains.
                                Over Unity after buoyancy



sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2023, 12:37:09 AM »
In any case,
The input and output are whatever they are.
60%, 63%?


Add buoyancy energy here


Then add gravity energy on the way down


Thermodynamics is destroyed

Cloxxki

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2023, 01:01:21 PM »
Assuming you're trying to extract energy from buoyancy in water, have you looked up at the realistically achieved efficiency of that system?
If you allow the gas to rise at the speed it likes, it's going to rise slowly, a lot of drag. Compare a football released under water. Only when it breaches the surface, does it gain speed. It's like a fancy sports car, driving through a block of syrup. All you do is stir the syrup, or in this case water.
So then, you decide to allow only very slow rising of the gasses. So very high force, very low speed. Which generator would be suggested for that? Or would a weight be raised, later to be dropped? Then you need an efficient way to extact most of the kinetic energy from a falling weight.
How will the gas come back down, collection of water from the combustion, then falling in bulk?
All the efficiencies multiplied, and minding the actual efficiency of producing HHO at the needed pressure, I'm curious whether you can reach 100%, let alone more.
I'd love a realistic schematic based on previously achieved efficiencies for the kinds of production and extraction proposed.

kolbacict

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2023, 02:37:38 PM »
Compare a football released under water. Only when it breaches the surface, does it gain speed.
Are you sure?  By what forces it accelerate ?
The Archimedean force is no longer there, but the force of gravity has appeared, directly opposite.

Cloxxki

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2023, 03:22:13 PM »
Are you sure?  By what forces ?
The Archimedean force is no longer there, but the force of gravity has appeared, directly opposite.
Drag, simple drag.
That feeling when you stick your hand out the window of a car on the motorway. Feel that force oushing the hand back?
Guess how much slower you only need to move your hand when a meter under water for the same force? All that force you feel on your hand out the car window, is actually slowing the car down or significantly added to the power demand to keep that speed.
Fill a basketball or yoga ball with water and compare how hard it is to make it reach 1 m/s horizontally compared to when it's tethered from a high beam when it's actually also being raised.
If you want your buyoant vessel to drive a generator, you better have a really good idea of how that's going to work without losing >50% right there to moving water around before the generator's 10-20% losses (at optimal input rpm) are introduced. And that is assuming you manage to drive any generator at optimal rpm without additional gearing.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2023, 03:32:33 PM »
You need beter bait than that to troll here Cloxxki.


Cloxxki

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Re: Buoyancy wheel driven by HHO electrolysis.
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2023, 03:36:02 PM »