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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: ibpointless2 on October 26, 2010, 01:13:46 AM
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What if a water battery could be made with similar metals? would it still decay like a normal water battery due to galvanic action?
A normal water battery would use to different metals like copper and zinc; once put in water it would produce a voltage. What if you could get the same effect with same metals like copper and copper put in water? Would it last forever, be perpetual motion?
What if? What do you think? is it possible? has it been done before?
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So if you take a neo magnet and napkins as the dielectric and put them together you get some voltage once it is soaked in water.
The voltage is not stable, for me it went from 250 mV to -250 mV. It oscillates very slowly and it will charge a capacitor but when the magnet water battery goes down in voltage so does the power that was in the capacitor, so the capacitor reflects its power.
It will only activate with water and so long as the napkin is wet it will supply power but when it dries its gone.
I think it should last longer than a normal water battery because there is no decay of metal because they all are the same metal, so it leads me to assume its the magnets that do the work and not the metal.
something i thought i should point out ;D
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Hi
I know for certain that this is possible. I have been making some NS coils with just copper wire. They work just like a normal NS coil but run at a much lower current level. So you can basically have two electrodes both copper and get electrical current. I will post some videos showing these effects in the future.
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Hi
I know for certain that this is possible. I have been making some NS coils with just copper wire. They work just like a normal NS coil but run at a much lower current level. So you can basically have two electrodes both copper and get electrical current. I will post some videos showing these effects in the future.
Wow Lasersaber! I'm a big fan of your work! Its a pleasure to have you comment on my thread! ;D
I've notice too that copper can work, just never thought of using it in a NS coil, very smart!
I've used magnets because they hold themselves and make for quick measurements. I'll try to post a video of my finding too.
Please let me know more of your only copper NS coil. How do you make them?
The biggest question i have and you may too is " Do they last longer?" because they are the same metals.
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I believe what is happening is the same as what happens in a normal lead-acid battery.
In the simple lead-acid battery, alternating plates of mostly lead (all the same metal) are exposed to electrical current. This oxidizes half the plates and changes their surfaces into lead oxide. This creates the potential difference between the now positive and negatively charged plates. The electrolyte charges of the sulfuric acid then begin to flow through the plates and create voltage.
The same is happening in your cell. Copper naturally oxidizes in water. This small oxidation creates a potential difference as a small amount of the copper surface becomes copper oxide. This is where your charge is coming from. If you have no other electrolyte than water, you are getting the charge from small water self-ionization, and the electrons that are flowing between the copper and copper-oxide wires to balance their potential.
Do you notice any greenish hue on either of the wires. My guess is that as time goes on you will notice this oxidation. Just like the copper surface of the Statue of Liberty has turned green from oxidation.
If you actually try to “charge†your cell with a battery, you should see one electrode oxidize and change color. I think this would then “kill†your cell. The copper-oxide coating acts as a protective coating in the case of the Statue of Liberty. Once one wire’s surface is completely oxidized, the reaction should basically stop.
Good luck with your experiments.
RR2
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I believe what is happening is the same as what happens in a normal lead-acid battery.
In the simple lead-acid battery, alternating plates of mostly lead (all the same metal) are exposed to electrical current. This oxidizes half the plates and changes their surfaces into lead oxide. This creates the potential difference between the now positive and negatively charged plates. The electrolyte charges of the sulfuric acid then begin to flow through the plates and create voltage.
The same is happening in your cell. Copper naturally oxidizes in water. This small oxidation creates a potential difference as a small amount of the copper surface becomes copper oxide. This is where your charge is coming from. If you have no other electrolyte than water, you are getting the charge from small water self-ionization, and the electrons that are flowing between the copper and copper-oxide wires to balance their potential.
Do you notice any greenish hue on either of the wires. My guess is that as time goes on you will notice this oxidation. Just like the copper surface of the Statue of Liberty has turned green from oxidation.
If you actually try to “charge†your cell with a battery, you should see one electrode oxidize and change color. I think this would then “kill†your cell. The copper-oxide coating acts as a protective coating in the case of the Statue of Liberty. Once one wire’s surface is completely oxidized, the reaction should basically stop.
Good luck with your experiments.
RR2
What if you're not using copper but instead your using neo magnets?
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What if you're not using copper but instead your using neo magnets?
The metal on the magnet's surface in contact with the water would then be the metal being oxidized.
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"The metal on the magnet's surface in contact with the water would then be the metal being oxidized."
This is why my latest NS coils are made with enamel covered copper wire and run dry with no electrolyte. I am tired of trying to guess how much of the NS coil effect is galvanic vs non-galvanic. I am now doing tests to see how fast they charge capacitors and how well they work when in a Faraday cage. So far I have just been testing them inside an aluminum foil covered container. Does anybody know if this makes a good enough Faraday cage for testing? I am pleased with my results so far and I do plan on fully documenting the coils on video after I do more testing.
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Hello Lasersaber,
Now that experiment sounds interesting. Is your foil container grounded? If so, that's great. You eliminate both the galvanic variable and the RF variable as well.
May I ask...Did you just paint the wires with clearcoat?
Thanks for sharing your efforts,
RR2
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Is your foil container grounded?
Yes, I have tested it both grounded and ungrounded. It made no difference in the test results.
May I ask...Did you just paint the wires with clearcoat?
I used regular enamel magnet wire for the copper wire. I used uninsulated steel wire for the other wire. I was careful not to scratch the enamel in the winding process. I also made three coils to test in case one had a defect in some way. I also saturated one of them with silicone spray lubrication that is specifically designed to "waterproof, rustproof and lubricate. The oil coated one works just the same as the others.
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Yes, I have tested it both grounded and ungrounded. I made no difference in the test results.
I used regular enamel magnet wire for the copper wire. I used uninsulated steel wire for the other wire. I was careful not to scratch the enamel in the winding process. I also made three coils to test in case one had a defect in some way. I also saturated one of them with silicone spray lubrication that is specifically designed to "waterproof, rustproof and lubricate. The oil coated one works just the same as the others.
It might be enamel coating? Can you do a continuity test on a piece of enamel wire, not the copper underneath but the actual enamel?
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oh wow, i forgot i even made this thread.
I was doing a google search for something dealing with water batteries with similar metals and i come across this, a thread i created on the topic.
I didn't plan on messing with water batteries its just one thing led to another and now i'm back where i started, funny how that works. I've been trying to make a homemade water captret and i though i succeeded but i think what i'm seeing is something very different. You see I'm using to similar metals that are in water and when i hook it up in series to a battery i get more voltage out then what i put in. On further experimenting i believe it was due the "water captret" actually being a water battery. You can watch the video here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGQmHY0ervQ
It seems that my water captret is just a water battery, but not in the sense of a normal water battery where it uses two dissimilar metals but the same metal. But in order for it to work well you just can't go and take two of the same metals and place them in water, there's more to it.
The reason why i think it works so well is what i'm using and how i'm using it. I'm using aluminum foil, but one piece is bigger than the other. For some odd reason having one piece bigger than the other is giving me voltage, enough to charge a capacitor. The greater the difference in size of the plates the greater the potential difference.
So why is this so important? well aluminum doesn't rust like other metals when exposed to water, due to the aluminum oxide that forms on it. So what this gives us is a battery that could last a long time, I've heard of aluminum taking decades to corrode, and the battery is easy and cheap to make. Its so simple that its crazy.
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What if a water battery could be made with similar metals? would it still decay like a normal water battery due to galvanic action?
A normal water battery would use to different metals like copper and zinc; once put in water it would produce a voltage. What if you could get the same effect with same metals like copper and copper put in water? Would it last forever, be perpetual motion?
What if? What do you think? is it possible? has it been done before?
Of course, it has been done before. It's called concentration cell, as you have gravity cells or cells using differentplanes of a monocrystal. Place the similar metals, say Cu, in vessels containing different concentrations of water solutionof CuSO4 and you'll have it. Recall the Nernst equation from school to find an explanation.
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Since your cap has more voltage than your battery; will it charge up the battery. Maybe with a diode?
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Since your cap has more voltage than your battery; will it charge up the battery. Maybe with a diode?
I don't see why it shouldn't but i'm going to need more than a diode, maybe a joule thief. and also more of the caps need to be in series inorder to get something of that nature.
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I don't think my Water captret is really a water captret, but it does show some capacitor and electret effect it just i don't want to confuse people with names. I name things the way i see it, and the water captret is just water and it acts like a capacitor and a electret so the name might stick. But for the record the water captret and the regular captret are two different thing that happen to be very same, if that makes any sense.
As for the water captret it also seems to be a water battery, well, it's more water battery than any water battery out their. I say this because it seems it might be consuming the water as a power source, the water is being transformed into hydrogen and oxygen from what i'm seeing. And unlike a normal water battery where it has two dissimilar metals and one of the metals is consumed this water captret has the same metals and still produce power without consuming the metals themselves.
So in-fact the water captret are merely batteries, when used produce hydrogen. So that voltage amiplication i was seeing in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGQmHY0ervQ was merely do to the fact that the water captret is a battery that was put in series to give me more voltage. So if you think this who experiment is a bust, you're forgetting that in order to have a water battery you needed two dissimilar metals but yet the water captret is the same metals that use regular old tap water- this is amazing.
The water captrets can be used by them selfs as batteries and they can be hooked in parallel and charge a capacitor too. when you do use them bubbles start to form on the pates and i believe they're hydrogen and oxygen bubbles. Whats even more crazy is that you can short the water captret out and bubbles will start form, so even when shorted its producing power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITf0zNdNK0M
its crazy to think that you can make hydrogen without any power needed.
So this is what i've seen so far, its easy to copy this experiment and cheap too so please do try yourself.
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I don't see why it shouldn't but i'm going to need more than a diode, maybe a joule thief. and also more of the caps need to be in series inorder to get something of that nature.
This will not charge the battery. Your cap (by the way what is the value of the cap) will simply discharge into the battery. Since the cap.value is most likley low there will be no effect on the battery. If you charge up a line of caps in series that will decrease the total cap. even more.
You are looking at voltage in vs voltage out , this can be extremely misleading. You need to look at power in (watts) vs power out (watts). Consider a Van De Graff generator. A 12 volt power supply can produce 100's of thousand of volts out put the current is in the micro or pico range.
In these types of batteries its all about amperage not so much voltage.
Keep experimenting though- good for you!
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Now i'm getting somewhere with this water captret "water battery" idea.
For a long time i couldn't piece it together as to why it was working the way it does, i could not figure out how to get more voltage out of it. Now i've figured it out.
To get more voltage and have the water captret run at its best performance is very simple. The big piece of aluminium needs to big but very THIN. The littler piece of aluminum needs to be small but really THICK.
Before with my normal setup i could get around .100 volts. Now with a big Thin piece and a Thick little piece I seen voltages as high as .500 volts.
So there you have it, Its about thickness and size and the right combo gives you good voltage.
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Here is an interesting experiment you can try. See how long it takes to charge up your cap.
Go ahead and put together a quick water battery with copper and zink or a galvanized plate and compare the charging rates of both of them. The speed of the cap. charge is directly related to the amperage from the charging device. A good cap to use is a 4700mf 25v electolytic. Give it a try you will learn a lot.
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Here is an interesting experiment you can try. See how long it takes to charge up your cap.
Go ahead and put together a quick water battery with copper and zink or a galvanized plate and compare the charging rates of both of them. The speed of the cap. charge is directly related to the amperage from the charging device. A good cap to use is a 4700mf 25v electolytic. Give it a try you will learn a lot.
I don't make water batteries the way you described, I don't use copper or zink or any dissimilar metals. My Water batteries use only Aluminum foil for both plates.
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ok, I was just interested in the amperage produced. You are doing some good work!
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As i been playing with the water captret "water battery" trying different prototypes i found that my cats prefer to drink the water captret water. I'm not worried as it is only tap water but it is quite strange they would come all the way here, far from the water and food dish, to drink my water captret water. They seem to really like it, don't know if the water taste different or if its the shinny aluminum foil attracting them.
The cats seem as normal and healthy as they ever been. I just can't figure out why they would go all the way across the house to drink out of a small cup of water, their heads barely fit in and if the water is at the bottom they will try to get to it? Makes me want to drink the water to see whats so great about it.
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Its about 7pm and I have just finished replicating ibpointless2 alum. foil battery. It certainly works and I have been able to charge up a 4900 mf 25 volt cap to 177 mv.
The big problem with water batteries is that the cat. and anodes will breakdown. Using auminum
this would not happen. I am going to run some long term test to see if anything unexpected happens. Also I will set some cells up in series and parallel to monitor voltage and amperage.
Congradulations to ib!!
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Its about 7pm and I have just finished replicating ibpointless2 alum. foil battery. It certainly works and I have been able to charge up a 4900 mf 25 volt cap to 177 mv.
The big problem with water batteries is that the cat. and anodes will breakdown. Using auminum
this would not happen. I am going to run some long term test to see if anything unexpected happens. Also I will set some cells up in series and parallel to monitor voltage and amperage.
Congradulations to ib!!
Thanks, thats about what i'm getting too. I've seen up to .600 volts sometimes.
i'm doing long term test too, i've got one that is completely shorted out and so far the plates seem to be fine and look like new. I actually believe that shorting them out is much better for them as they will find there sweet spot. After you had them shorted out they will not go dead like normal batteries, they seem to go back up in voltage like a electret.
You can also put them in series with a AA battery and it will increase the AA battery voltage and charge a capacitor too.
I'm also testing to see if my cats will prefer to go to water in the water captret or just regular tap water in a cup. So far my cat has gone directly to the water captret one even though the regular tap water was closer she still wanted the water captret water.
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Hello ib,
Thanks for sharing your research. I just wanted to make a comment about the water in your experiments. If the only metal you are using is aluminum then it is probably not too far of a stretch to say that small amounts of aluminum may be oxidizing off its surface, or actually dissolving in the water. Aluminum is very slightly soluble in water.
That being said, it is also a noted tidbit that Alzheimer victims have been found to have an elevated level of aluminum deposits in their brain tissues. Where this aluminum comes from I don't think has ever been definitively determined. My suspicion is it is from the aluminum chlorohydrate that is so common in underarm antiperspirants, but again, there is no definitive proof on that either.
I just mention this so that you may consider keeping your cats and yourself from drinking the water from your experiments. I am probably totally off base here, but I thought I would throw this out as something to consider. Thanks again for your efforts.
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Thanks, thats about what i'm getting too. I've seen up to .600 volts sometimes.
i'm doing long term test too, i've got one that is completely shorted out and so far the plates seem to be fine and look like new. I actually believe that shorting them out is much better for them as they will find there sweet spot. After you had them shorted out they will not go dead like normal batteries, they seem to go back up in voltage like a electret.
You can also put them in series with a AA battery and it will increase the AA battery voltage and charge a capacitor too.
I'm also testing to see if my cats will prefer to go to water in the water captret or just regular tap water in a cup. So far my cat has gone directly to the water captret one even though the regular tap water was closer she still wanted the water captret water.
Good afternoon
I have been reading your thread with much interest. Have you been able to put your water water batteries in a series to build voltage?
Bizzy
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Good afternoon
I have been reading your thread with much interest. Have you been able to put your water water batteries in a series to build voltage?
Bizzy
yes, i've gotten it up to a 1 volt. I one experiment i left it connected to a resistor and over time it started outputting more power than what i started with.
I've had hook the cells up to a battery to increase the voltage output of the battery and gotten a 1.5 battery to light a 2.5 LED.
I've been fine tunning the cells, trying to keep evaporations away has been my main goal.
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yes, i've gotten it up to a 1 volt. I one experiment i left it connected to a resistor and over time it started outputting more power than what i started with.
I've had hook the cells up to a battery to increase the voltage output of the battery and gotten a 1.5 battery to light a 2.5 LED.
I've been fine tunning the cells, trying to keep evaporations away has been my main goal.
Good afternoon
This sounds interesting and would like to run it side my side with my magnesium/carbon batteries. What metals have you used so far?
Thanks
Bizzy
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Good afternoon
This sounds interesting and would like to run it side my side with my magnesium/carbon batteries. What metals have you used so far?
Thanks
Bizzy
I've also used graphite in distilled water and work fine. A lot of metals will work, the only important thing is that you use similar metals instead of dissimilar metals, if you don't then you merely created a galvanic reaction. The voltage will be low but thats due to the galvanic reaction being eliminated. With cell like your magnesium/carbon batteries they get most of their voltage from the galvanic reaction and due to the galvanic reaction the magnesium will soon corrode away and the battery will stop working. This is what i'm try to get rid of so that i can have batteries that will last for a very long time. As to why i get electricity is from my theory that water is a electret.
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yes, i've gotten it up to a 1 volt. I one experiment i left it connected to a resistor and over time it started outputting more power than what i started with.
I've had hook the cells up to a battery to increase the voltage output of the battery and gotten a 1.5 battery to light a 2.5 LED.
I've been fine tunning the cells, trying to keep evaporations away has been my main goal.
Try Mineral oil or if you like buy some therm oil for batteries to reduce the evaporation. I like the smell of the mineral oil better then the therm oil.
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I've also used graphite in distilled water and work fine. A lot of metals will work, the only important thing is that you use similar metals instead of dissimilar metals, if you don't then you merely created a galvanic reaction. The voltage will be low but thats due to the galvanic reaction being eliminated. With cell like your magnesium/carbon batteries they get most of their voltage from the galvanic reaction and due to the galvanic reaction the magnesium will soon corrode away and the battery will stop working. This is what i'm try to get rid of so that i can have batteries that will last for a very long time. As to why i get electricity is from my theory that water is a electret.
That does sound very interesting. I have some carbon rods I could use in place of the magnesium rods. I may have to try that later this week.
Thanks
Bizzy
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I've also used graphite in distilled water and work fine. A lot of metals will work, the only important thing is that you use similar metals instead of dissimilar metals, if you don't then you merely created a galvanic reaction. The voltage will be low but thats due to the galvanic reaction being eliminated. With cell like your magnesium/carbon batteries they get most of their voltage from the galvanic reaction and due to the galvanic reaction the magnesium will soon corrode away and the battery will stop working. This is what i'm try to get rid of so that i can have batteries that will last for a very long time. As to why i get electricity is from my theory that water is a electret.
Good morning
That sounds correct. It is my goal to produce a usable battery with little or no metal degradation. I am now wondering if we can also use simiilar metal in earth batteries as well. This may be another avenue to explore once the thaw arrives. For metals in eaqrth batteries I am thinking either copper and copper or carbon and carbon
Thanks
Bizzy
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Thanks, thats about what i'm getting too. I've seen up to .600 volts sometimes.
Hi IB
This sounds very interesting and I hope to delve into this soon. I do have one question if you are using similar metals how do you determine which is cathode and which is the anode/ Especially if you are hooking them up in a series you would have to know polarity.
Thanks
Bizzy
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Hi IB
This sounds very interesting and I hope to delve into this soon. I do have one question if you are using similar metals how do you determine which is cathode and which is the anode/ Especially if you are hooking them up in a series you would have to know polarity.
Thanks
Bizzy
It can be hard determine + and - but sometimes the small thick one is negative and the big thin one is positive, but i can change and it seems the water determine whats positive or negative. Just test it with a meter before doing series and parallel.
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It can be hard determine + and - but sometimes the small thick one is negative and the big thin one is positive, but i can change and it seems the water determine whats positive or negative. Just test it with a meter before doing series and parallel.
Hi IB
Thats what I was thinking originally just to meter it first. I was also wondering if a vbridge rectifier would also help define the polarity. Although it cost some minor voltage. there would be no guessing afterwards.
Thanks
Bizzy