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Author Topic: Captret - Capacitor and Electret  (Read 282300 times)

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #345 on: June 30, 2014, 02:17:25 PM »
Milehigh said:
Quote
It seems like a reasonable conjecture: Bedini hijacked the term "radiant energy" to make gullible people think that a simple, basic pulse motor is something special.  He will NOT TELL YOU why and how the coil is making the neon light up.  It grosses me out.

I completely agree with your sentiments about B@#$%i. and "radiant energy"

However this thread was also hijacked from "captret" to "radiant energy" and my posts #336 and #337 were completely glossed over by the good old boys ferver to discuss "radiant energy".
Not a peep, even though experiment, data and a plausible explanation was presented.

I suppose if your not a "youtube poser" you don't get taken seriously on this forum.

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #346 on: June 30, 2014, 04:13:44 PM »
Well, I have built several Bedini motors and ALL of them end up depleting the batteries after running for a period of time.
Were the batteries lead acid and were they conditioned before you started taking serious readings? Did you follow their directions to the letter and put your disappointing results to them for comment? A strength of JB is that he has set up good support arrangements.

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #347 on: June 30, 2014, 04:14:52 PM »
Paul:

Sure, the coil gets energized by the source battery.  The coil stores the energy supplied by the battery.  That's how coils work.

This isn't evidence. Try again.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #348 on: July 01, 2014, 12:16:20 AM »
Paul:

How about this:

I can hold a capacitor in my hand and connect a resistor across it and it will discharge the stored energy.

I can hold a coil in my hand and connect a resistor across it and it will discharge the stored energy.  The waveform for the inductor discharge can be identical to the waveform of the capacitor discharge.

So where is the "radiant energy?"  Who said that discharging a coil produces "radiant energy?"  After all, you can make measurements that show that the battery supplied the energy to the coil.  The math for the discharge for the coil and the capacitor is all worked out.

Find references for a coil producing "radiant energy" when it discharges.  I mean references outside of the groups of people that are Bedini motor enthusiasts or free energy enthusiasts.  Can you?

What is your definition of "radiant energy?"  I mean your real definition, not just some catch phrase.

If you hold two fingers across the two coil terminals of a regular 12-volt relay and then you disconnect the power, you feel a high-voltage shock.  It's fairly strong and can hurt a bit.  What's going on there?  Is that "radiant energy?"

Show me one Bedini motor experiment where an experimenter measures the average power input from the source battery, and they also measure the average power output to the charging battery.  That would measure the efficiency of the motor.  Can you provide any links?

The whole "Bedini radiant energy" concept is false.  A Bedini motor charges a battery through pulses of current with a measurable and fixed amount of energy when it it is running in a steady state.  How often do Bedini motor enthusiasts attempt to measure the amount of energy in each charging pulse?

The burden of proof is on you to prove that inductor discharges, one of the most basic fundamental concepts in electronics, are "radiant energy."

My feeling is that you are stating that because that's what you heard from Bedini.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #349 on: July 01, 2014, 01:30:26 AM »
Milehigh said:
I completely agree with your sentiments about B@#$%i. and "radiant energy"

However this thread was also hijacked from "captret" to "radiant energy" and my posts #336 and #337 were completely glossed over by the good old boys ferver to discuss "radiant energy".
Not a peep, even though experiment, data and a plausible explanation was presented.

I suppose if your not a "youtube poser" you don't get taken seriously on this forum.
Not glossed over, but rather much appreciated and impossible to argue with. What can you say when there is nothing to be said?   ;)
It would be great if  more people would follow your example and do real experiments and report all their data.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Captret Demystified
« Reply #350 on: July 01, 2014, 05:01:39 AM »
Did a test on another capacitor in "captret" configuration monitoring current from a 10 volt source.

Initial current:        equivalent leakage resistance:
 
100mA                     100 ohms

One minute later:

10mA                       1000 ohms

Two Minutes

1 mA                        10,000 ohms

Three minutes

0.1 mA                     100,000 ohms

As the oxide layer forms the leakage resistance progressively goes up as current goes down.

At no time did the current ever reverse, even after one hour when the leakage was less than 0.1 mA. So there is no battery charging effect.

As I said in the previous post the "captret " acts like a variable resistor changing resistance upward over time hence presenting a much lower load on the battery from the initial connection.

The reduced current over time causes the battery voltage to increase giving the illusion that the battery is being charged....it is not.

A high brightness led fed from a 9 volt battery will be lit for a very long time  when operated at less than 0.1 mA.

I second what TK said, very refreshing to see actual test data with the relevant parameters measured.

I have a question, or three  :-[.

Does the test data mean that the capacitor is effectively destroyed in about three minutes ?

Or does the oxide layer not have such an effect on the capacitor, I mean is a capacitor that is used in a "cap-tret" arrangement ok
to then use in another project that requires a capacitor in good condition ?

I guess the point is two fold-- 1. why does such a big change happen in such a short space of time (oxide layer)
and-- 2. is it reversible ?

Cheers

Offline Vortex1

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #351 on: July 01, 2014, 03:05:10 PM »
Farmhand asked:
Quote
I have a question, or three  (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/embarrassed.gif).

Does the test data mean that the capacitor is effectively destroyed in about three minutes ?

Or does the oxide layer not have such an effect on the capacitor, I mean is a capacitor that is used in a "cap-tret" arrangement ok
to then use in another project that requires a capacitor in good condition ?

I guess the point is two fold-- 1. why does such a big change happen in such a short space of time (oxide layer)
and-- 2. is it reversible ?

Thanks for your interest. As long as the case is positive and the minus terminal is negative, and current and voltage is limited, the capacitor wil not be destroyed. It is usually only the outer wrap of the negative terminal that is involved in the reaction.

The reaction happens quickly because it is only one wrap and the outer case involved. If you try to reverse it by reversing polarity, you may harm the outer layer of the negative wrap. I will try this in time and report back.

Any electrolytic capacitor that has been sitting on the shelf a long time, such as new old stock (NOS) will have a high initial leakage until the oxide layers form completely.

When plugging in an old radio , amplifier or any old electronic equipment that has been sitting around a long time, it is good practice to bring it up slowly with a variac or light bulb in series with the device to limit current until the oxide layers completely reform. If excessive current is drawn by plugging in directly, the filter electrolytics can short or even explode. I have watched this current drain with a power meter and you would be surprised how hot the big electrolytics can get until they are "formed". There is a big difference in power drawn before and after "forming".

I have had good luck in most cases reforming electrolytics in old equipment without having to replace them by bringing the voltage up very slowly or current limiting the input power. The capacitors will slowly reform and after an hour or so draw normal current. The equipment then can be operated normally.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 08:29:53 PM by Vortex1 »

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #352 on: July 01, 2014, 04:24:04 PM »
Paul:

How about this:

I can hold a capacitor in my hand and connect a resistor across it and it will discharge the stored energy.

I can hold a coil in my hand and connect a resistor across it and it will discharge the stored energy.  The waveform for the inductor discharge can be identical to the waveform of the capacitor discharge.

So where is the "radiant energy?"  Who said that discharging a coil produces "radiant energy?"  After all, you can make measurements that show that the battery supplied the energy to the coil.  The math for the discharge for the coil and the capacitor is all worked out.

Find references for a coil producing "radiant energy" when it discharges.  I mean references outside of the groups of people that are Bedini motor enthusiasts or free energy enthusiasts.  Can you?

What is your definition of "radiant energy?"  I mean your real definition, not just some catch phrase.

If you hold two fingers across the two coil terminals of a regular 12-volt relay and then you disconnect the power, you feel a high-voltage shock.  It's fairly strong and can hurt a bit.  What's going on there?  Is that "radiant energy?"

Show me one Bedini motor experiment where an experimenter measures the average power input from the source battery, and they also measure the average power output to the charging battery.  That would measure the efficiency of the motor.  Can you provide any links?

The whole "Bedini radiant energy" concept is false.  A Bedini motor charges a battery through pulses of current with a measurable and fixed amount of energy when it it is running in a steady state.  How often do Bedini motor enthusiasts attempt to measure the amount of energy in each charging pulse?

The burden of proof is on you to prove that inductor discharges, one of the most basic fundamental concepts in electronics, are "radiant energy."

My feeling is that you are stating that because that's what you heard from Bedini.

MileHigh
.
You flatter yourself when you imagine that I can be bothered.
.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #353 on: July 01, 2014, 05:37:27 PM »
Paul:

Quote
You flatter yourself when you imagine that I can be bothered.

Bullcrap.  You are just being dismissive and rude because you can't respond with a coherent argument about a Berdini motor charging a battery with "radiant energy."  You just want to forget this ever took place so in a month you can tell some newbie about the "radiant energy" and sound authoritative.

Like a horse with blinders on.

MileHigh

Offline Johan_1955

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #354 on: July 01, 2014, 06:21:39 PM »
It is not a generator of "radiant energy," that is complete nonsense.  The SG is a very crappy battery charger in terms of power-in to power-out efficiency.  It is typically only 30% efficient and 70% of the source battery power is lost as waste heat to make the wheel spin.

In the entire world of electronics, and electrical technology in general, the output from a discharging coil is never referred to as "radiant energy."

In your mind you probably think that there is something "amazing and different" about the "radiant energy spike."  Well the truth is that that is complete and total nonsense.

My suggestion to you is to learn about how a coil works so that you can understand why and under what conditions a coil can generate a high voltage spike.

It's time for you and many others like you to demystify this Bedini nonsense where he calls the output from a coil, "radiant energy."  That makes it sound like it comes from "somewhere else," possibly even the "vacuum."  The source of the energy for the voltage spike is the battery.

MileHigh
Hi Nicky,

We learn so much from you, and learned from you!

We all would like to see some hard-copy evidence:From your Bedini building, testing and later the communication with John Bedini directly, approachable he is at his forum!
To confront him with your SG or what ever Bedini experience!

So you complete always, could it be fast!?


Regards, Johan

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #355 on: July 02, 2014, 01:46:39 AM »
Hey Sprinkles:

A Bedini motor is nothing more than a mechanical timing device to energize an inductor and then have the inductor discharge a pulse of current into a charging battery.  So the only question is, is the discharge of energy a pulse of current or "radiant energy."  I co-designed a pulse motor that is far superior to a Bedini motor with TinselKola.  It's more efficient, it's more flexible, and it can out-spike any Bedini motor.  You can find the thread by searching on "MHOP" here and on TinselKoala's videos.

As a suggestion, try spending half a day surfing and learn all you can about discharging inductors.  Learn the "secret" about how they generate high-voltage spikes.  Once informed, another suggestion is to start a thread on Bedini's forum and debate the issue with the people there.

MileHigh

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #356 on: July 02, 2014, 02:36:04 PM »

A Bedini motor is nothing more than a ...

The SG is not a motor, dick head.

Offline tinman

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #357 on: July 02, 2014, 02:45:31 PM »
The SG is not a motor, dick head.
The SG is an electric motor-you ow MH an apology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBvUoRPsQ-4

Offline tinman

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #358 on: July 02, 2014, 02:58:38 PM »
The !radiant energy! thing could be seen like this. When power is passed through an inductor,a magnetic field radiates outward from the inductor.When the power is cut from the inductor,that radiant magnetic field collapses,and causes current to flow through the inductors wire.

The reason we get a high voltage from the inductive kickback when the load is of high resistance,is because the magnetic field  collapses very fast around the inductor-due to the light load. If we have a load with low resistance,the magnetic field collapses slower,and we get a greater current.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Captret - Capacitor and Electret
« Reply #359 on: July 03, 2014, 12:33:09 AM »
The SG is not a motor, dick head.

You are playing the fool with the potty mouth.  You have not responded with anything to back up your claim so I have to assume that you are parroting what have been told with no understanding of what you are saying.

From the YouTube clip:

Quote
In the full length DVD, lasting almost 3 hours, John Bedini, the inventor and Patent holder, describes his thinking since 1955 as he painstakingly developed his energizer, popularly known as the SG Machine.  An apparatus that produces battery power by charging one or more secondary batteries from a single primary battery and that captures and utilizes what Tesla termed "radiant" energy. Shown for the first time are his underlying concepts, which lead to the demonstration of several new circuits, and their component values, never before shown in public.

Three lies right there.  A Bedini motor typically turns 70% of the source battery power into waste heat.  It doesn't "produce battwery power."  It doesn't capture anything, it just discharges some source battery energy and turns it into less net charging energy for the charging battery.   No "radiant energy" anywhere, it's nothing more than a discharging inductor.

For what it's worth, Vortex1 did a great analysis of how a "captret" works and showed that it is nothing special.  There is no true "capret" just like there is no "radiant energy" in the context of a simple Bedini pulse motor.  Likewise, there is no such thing as a "delayed Lenz effect."  That was analyzed and explained by Conradelectro working with some people on a thread, including myself.

Those are examples of people coming together and learning and progressing.  If you parrot "radiant energy" to a newbie person curious about a Bedini motor you are propagating the cycle of peer ignorance.  It's like being stuck in the "Bedini Stone Age."  There is a real world out there.

MileHigh