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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Jerry Volland on October 11, 2010, 02:52:25 AM

Title: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 11, 2010, 02:52:25 AM
Here's a video which shows an original Gray motor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS4zl3f1fFI 

This was one of his later models and uses Ignitrons.  The video shows a lot of detail, including the amount of electronics which was used.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: pese on October 11, 2010, 06:46:07 AM
BINGO

Good found.

I see the components.
all parts are  made beginning 80´

also nice to see this magic tube.

descibed from Gray junior as an TRIODE
(that is not exisiting witsome KiloVolts
-so as maked in his "selled plans" !

It is a THYRATRON.

(That is an part like modern Thyristors (SCR)

but this old Vakuum Tubes , can
work up tu several thousen Volts
and u to Ampereages up to more than 10.0000 amps.


NO MODERN SEMICONDUCTOR CAN WORKING UP
this VALUES  !!!


So, this Video have instructed me (and others)

Thanks

Gustav Pese
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Zarko on October 11, 2010, 07:39:28 PM
Looking at that drive shaft I'd say the motor's power is around 40 Hp.  But I don't see a Conversion Tube or a delay line.  I'm wondering if this one is OU.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 20, 2010, 12:13:45 AM
One of the last things I did at EnergiticForum before being banned for "blatant plagiarism" was ask Aaron what his circuit would look like if I hadn't joined his forum and presented my Arc Switch circuit. Of course he didn't answer, but right before my publication he was working with a grid which supposedly received compressed ether, without results. Now, looking at the new video, it's obvious that Gray was using longitudinal dielectric energy. It wasn't High Voltage which was charging the big capacitors. They were part of the longitudinal circuit - a mechanism to produce dielectric energy. Gray always had a blocking cap in front of his battery. Unfortunately, I burned out my big cap last week so I can't do any more relevant experiments.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Zarko on October 20, 2010, 01:49:12 AM
One of the last things I did at EnergiticForum before being banned for "blatant plagiarism" was ask Aaron what his circuit would look like if I hadn't joined his forum and presented my Arc Switch circuit. Of course he didn't answer, but right before my publication he was working with a grid which supposedly received compressed ether, without results. Now, looking at the new video, it's obvious that Gray was using longitudinal dielectric energy. It wasn't High Voltage which was charging the big capacitors. They were part of the longitudinal circuit - a mechanism to produce dielectric energy. Gray always had a blocking cap in front of his battery. Unfortunately, I burned out my big cap last week so I can't do any more relevant experiments.
Tough luck, chump.  It looks to me like you're looking for an excuse not to post anymore.  Tell you what, if you don't, neither will I.  After all, we are the same, you and I.

Z
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 21, 2010, 12:02:26 AM
I'm still going to post, it's just that some of the relevant experiments are on hold.

Looking through the out take clips on this video, it's clear that the motor which is shown is not a classical system.  For instance, the size of the black battery cable is consistent with a high horse power motor, but the actual wires going to the coils are no where near this size.  These wires would melt in an instant if this motor were powered with normal electrical energy.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 21, 2010, 12:38:47 AM
that would depend on the voltage.
if it's 5Kv wires don't need to be that thick.
they only are at low voltages and high amps.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 21, 2010, 04:14:35 AM
that would depend on the voltage.
if it's 5Kv wires don't need to be that thick.
they only are at low voltages and high amps.
This is a valid point.  I'm attaching a picture which shows the 5kV transformer near the left, similar to a heavy duty flyback.  But even at high frequency can this charge the three big capacitors fast enough to match the pulse rate to the coils?  The reason I think the motor uses a non classical energy is because of the wire running along the V in the plastic - visible in the second picture.  From my perspective, this wire is part of the capacitor #25 in the first patent, and the third attachment.  The other side of the cap is the outer layers of the coil.  I did an experiment in the past with a single wire circuit which produced a non classical effect using PVC plastic:

http://www.energeticforum.com/39223-post135.html

Back when I wrote this message I didn't yet understand that the Water SparkPlug circuit does not produce a Plasmoid effect, so it's not the same effect my circuit produces.  And I no longer think Gray's motors merely dumped the capacitors.  I think the caps were used to produce a dielectric energy, a type of energy which could power the wire with the plastic.

My setup used a vacuum tube rectifier which produced secondary emission when it was reverse biased with a battery.  And the resultant sparks were not in any way ordinary.  I think one set of Ignitrons in the picture above may also be reversed biased in this manner, by the battery cable.  This would tap the electron cascade pese mentioned in message #33 of this thread:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9551.msg259066#new

If there is a cascade, each secondary electron emitted would produce a longitudinal positive pulse, according to Farnsworth.  And these non classical pulses are what can produce the 360 degree field reported with Gray's motors.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 21, 2010, 02:11:58 PM
It's an old skool chopper they used them back in the days to generate high voltage  :)


But even at high frequency can this charge the three big capacitors fast enough to match the pulse rate to the coils?
 

That would depend on the switching frequency, the pulse width and aswell as the storage capacity and that's usually not verry high with these capacitors.
Still there can be alot of energy in them because the voltage is so high.

The water sparkplug is another story.
It discharges a low voltage high amp capacitor through a pre ionized path.
not much people understand this they all think it's something magic but it ain't.
If you pull a spark near a charged capacitor you will see what i mean.
The capacitor will discharge itself through this spark and there is the bang.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 21, 2010, 04:50:43 PM
The water sparkplug is another story.
It discharges a low voltage high amp capacitor through a pre ionized path.
not much people understand this they all think it's something magic but it ain't.
If you pull a spark near a charged capacitor you will see what i mean.
The capacitor will discharge itself through this spark and there is the bang.
Your analysis of the spark plug circuit is correct, except there isn't any sound.  The difference between this and my Plasmoid circuit is the CDI circuit will produce a plasma burst with or without an inductor, but my circuit only works with an inductor.  Otherwise, there's a very loud bang.  And the WSP single polarity circuit has a grounded capacitor, but my circuit has both polarities, without a ground OR a really high trigger voltage.

Here's a stated variation of my circuit, from early January 2009, three weeks before Aaron completely changed his approach:

http://www.energeticforum.com/41069-post306.html

The only difference between this circuit and the one Aaron copyrighted, claiming plagiarism, is he added Gray's interrupter switch, claiming HE discovered it.

http://www.energeticforum.com/98140-post1998.html
Quote
posting my diagrams and claiming credit for it is NOT acceptable, which is EXACTLY what Jerry is doing. He posted that diagram claiming it is "his" switch, when I'm the one that came up with that and I have all the facts to prove it.

The only thing I claimed was that my circuit was an "Ed Gray Test Circuit".  Adding Gray's interrupter switch was an "obvious" variation, not plagiarism.  One of many variations I've published.  Aaron is the one who lifted my entire circuit, including my three point electrode pattern in place of the symbol Gray shows in his schematic, then added the switch.  Adding one thing to my circuit doesn't give him the right to copyright it and prevent me from discussing my own research.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: wattsup on October 21, 2010, 04:53:08 PM
@JV

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It is an incredible video. Every image spells poetry of thought and total dedication to implementation, right down to his near 1:1 ratio gearing to the alternator. That tells me the drive motor was running around 1750 RPM and if fully loaded the alternator was producing an output of 12 volts and at least 100 amps, although the torque required to do this is very high. If each storage battery can only absorb 20% of their rated amperage, he would need 5 storage batteries rated at 100 amps each, or 4 if he decided not to load the alternator completely.

He also shows that his drive motor is re-cycling each flyback energy from both the three rotor and stator coils which should be producing some pretty high voltage. This is a good way to emtpy out the 6 drive coils to then recharge them from 0 onwards at each one/third cycle. The switching involved is also shown

I would also say he is using those large parallel capacitors and other parallel components to absorb way more drive motor flyback then the motor can produce just so that the flybacks do not stay in the drive coils. Over-sizing reduces any potential bottlenecks. The switching involved is also very elaborate. He is not relying on the commutation alone to do this. I would also say that he then had to build his power inverter to bring the flyback down to a usable form.

Anyways, thanks. This video is a great portrayal of the complexities he had to overcome to realize this build. Just to think of the hundreds and hundreds of factors involved is mind-boggling. Such determination is rare indeed and shows us that in his time, they could concentrate totally without the distractions of our more modern-day lifestyle and information overload. Sticking to one idea and taking it all the way to fruition.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 22, 2010, 06:06:30 PM
wattsup,

It's nice to hear from someone who thinks Gray knew what he was doing.  I personally don't think that if there's something I can't figure out it means that Gray himself was a dumbkin.  And I agree that focus is the key.

This video does provide quite a bit of help.  I see very few components I can't identify.  Speaking of which, does anyone recognize the gold components in the picture below?  Judging by their location it's likely that they have something to do with triggering the Ignitrons, producing very short pulses.  If so, the brown ceramic capacitors are probably in the range of 250V.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: penno64 on October 22, 2010, 08:57:56 PM
Hi JV,

These are precision 10watt resistors.

The gold casing is merely a heat sink.

Kind Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 22, 2010, 10:46:54 PM
Thanks, that helps a lot.  So we have an LC circuit with a string of diodes in between.  If a rectifier were needed, a single unit of appropriate value could be used.  Since there are a string of them it may be that the small capacitances of the diodes are acting together to simulate a multi gap condencer, something which can be used to sharpen a pulse.

I'm also wondering about the square components which are connected to the Ignitrons' anodes.  Is there such a thing as a four terminal capacitor, or could these be bifilar coils?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 22, 2010, 10:50:23 PM
oil filled transformers.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 23, 2010, 03:09:09 AM
oil filled transformers.
I'm inclined to agree that they're transformers.  I notice two terminals of each one are shorted, which is consistent with pulse transformers.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: wattsup on October 23, 2010, 03:20:15 AM
Yes those are high precision resistors. I have several of those on hand.

In the image Location.JPG you can see two of those circuit boards and right behind them is what seems to be 6 solenoid driven high current contacts and you can see they are paralleled 2 by 2. This indicates that if these solenoids were used for the drive coils, the pulse frequency was not that high at all or he was using them to discharge those three large capacitors or he was diverting some energy out of the system.

Those three large capacitors in CoilsorCaps.JPG look like dual caps. Two caps per box and they all seem to be paralleled together to provide one hell of a punch.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 23, 2010, 06:50:04 PM
Yes those are high precision resistors. I have several of those on hand.

In the image Location.JPG you can see two of those circuit boards and right behind them is what seems to be 6 solenoid driven high current contacts and you can see they are paralleled 2 by 2. This indicates that if these solenoids were used for the drive coils, the pulse frequency was not that high at all or he was using them to discharge those three large capacitors or he was diverting some energy out of the system.

Those three large capacitors in CoilsorCaps.JPG look like dual caps. Two caps per box and they all seem to be paralleled together to provide one hell of a punch.
One of the wires from the solenoids goes to the Varacter, and the others go down to the external plugs by the lower capacitor bank which has cross connecting bus bars.  The two anode wires to the Ignitrons seem to come from this bank.  It looks like the string of square white components has the first wire on the back side coming from the Varacter.

I haven't done much reading on Ignitrons in the past but now that I've checked I see the top connection is the anode.  Here's a link to the pdf on these units:

http://www.scottbecker.net/tube/sheets/142/g/GL7171.pdf

There's something highly unconventional about the way these are wired up.  The cathode is the stainless steel jacket but the two wires from the square white components, one to the jacket and one to the trigger, are shorted together with a small jumper.  And I can't see any trigger wires to the set with the white anode cable.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 24, 2010, 03:37:19 AM
I'm thinking those external plugs are where the CSET's plug in.  With Gray's earlier motor the Conversion Tubes were visible on the shelf next to the capacitors, until the motor was shown running.  At that point the Tubes' wires were extended and the Tubes were moved out of sight.

One thing I noticed about that gray box at the lower right with the red wires is that it had an extension cord plugged into the wall.  This may be why that motor didn't attract any Investor interest.  That and the fact that it only produced two Hp.

If the motor in the current video did use the Conversion Tubes the Ignitrons were only the "one way current" devices, rather than a substitution for the Tubes.  So studying the Ignitron wiring doesn't put us any closer to understanding the CSET operation.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 24, 2010, 10:20:23 PM
from what i can see it is wired correctly so i dunno why you think it's wired in a weird way..
By the way they are mercury rectifiers.
Once the mercury arc is there the tube will conduct untill you interrupt the current then the arc falls off and you have to "Ignite" them again with the third electrode that's in the mercury drop at the bottom.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 25, 2010, 04:40:40 AM
from what i can see it is wired correctly so i dunno why you think it's wired in a weird way..
By the way they are mercury rectifiers.
Once the mercury arc is there the tube will conduct untill you interrupt the current then the arc falls off and you have to "Ignite" them again with the third electrode that's in the mercury drop at the bottom.
You're probably right that that's how they're normally wired.  I'm just having difficulty seeing how two wires which are shorted together at the origin can spark, producing the mercury vapor. 

And I agree with your assessment of the low pulse rate.  Those solenoids can't work too fast, especially if there's a long throw when breaking a HV circuit.  The motor looks like it's set up to charge an external battery bank, so it wouldn't have to fire with every coil alignment.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 25, 2010, 05:09:49 PM
they are not shorted they are placed in parallel.
he probably first create a cheap ass high voltage spark and then ignites the ignitrons to switch in the amps, and that's probably when strange things start to happen and it is also how lightning works.

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 26, 2010, 12:09:34 AM
they are not shorted they are placed in parallel.
he probably first create a cheap ass high voltage spark and then ignites the ignitrons to switch in the amps, and that's probably when strange things start to happen and it is also how lightning works.

The high voltage spark is probably in the external Conversion Tube, then the amps kick in.  I'm wondering if these Ignitrons all switch at the same instant.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 26, 2010, 12:39:40 AM
they don't have to switch at the same instant if he uses 3 CSET's and i believe he did.
I agree the spark is in the CSET but below not inside the conversion grids.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 26, 2010, 02:50:26 AM
they don't have to switch at the same instant if he uses 3 CSET's and i believe he did.
I agree the spark is in the CSET but below not inside the conversion grids.
I also believe the spark in the CSET is not inside the grids.

And I've been checking on pulse circuits and I found one that has a resistor across the output of the ignition transformer.  Here's the circuit, although it shows SCR's.  And another view of Gray's Ignitrons shows what looks like a resistor without a sleeve, on the top transformer.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 26, 2010, 07:21:00 PM
these are regular diodes probably 1N4007 and they are used to short the inductive kickback from the transformer primary coil.
as you can see he used two in series and since 1 diode is rated at about 1Kv you can easy see that diode string has two so it would be rated at 2Kv.  :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 26, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
these are regular diodes probably 1N4007 and they are used to short the inductive kickback from the transformer primary coil.
as you can see he used two in series and since 1 diode is rated at about 1Kv you can easy see that diode string has two so it would be rated at 2Kv.  :)
Sounds good enough to me.  And 2kV is well within the range of the trigger voltage.

Here's the complete frame, showing that there's also another bus bar along the bottom of the Ignitrons.  Looking at your second picture, there's only one lead going to the cathode but each trigger transformer has a red wire.  This pretty much confirms the Ignitrons are cascaded since it would take some small amount of time for the pulse to conduct along the loops between the transformers on the output side.  And the trigger pulse itself is in the range of 5 micro seconds.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 27, 2010, 05:11:02 PM
While I was looking through files with Ignitron switches I found an article about blasting concrete and rocks with a spark from a capacitor bank.   Here's the link if anyone is interested in demolition:

http://sri.auburn.edu/papers/2008/aiaa_2008_5710_532.pdf

This article mentioned something called a Bernardes Merryman circuit for preventing voltage reversals, something which uses two double capacitors.  This kind of capacitor is shown with the EMA-6 motor in message #18, and there's also some double caps visible on the left in the picture from the current video, in message #17.

The article also says this circuit can be used for energy recovery.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 28, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
The power supply is made up of four 12 volt battery's
When you look at the video you might think these battery's are wired in series giving a total voltage of 48 Volts.

This is not the case.
These battery's are wired in a center tap configuration.
So 2 x 24 Volts or simply 24-0-24

I have also reconstructed a circuit board aswell as some of the wiring on the drive circuit.
The diode string is made up of 6 diodes so would be rated about 6000 Volts.
I'm still working on the connections to the ignitor terminals and the high voltage inverter.  :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 28, 2010, 05:31:32 AM
The power supply is made up of four 12 volt battery's
When you look at the video you might think these battery's are wired in series giving a total voltage of 48 Volts.

This is not the case.
These battery's are wired in a center tap configuration.
So 2 x 24 Volts or simply 24-0-24

I have also reconstructed a circuit board aswell as some of the wiring on the drive circuit.
The diode string is made up of 6 diodes so would be rated about 6000 Volts.
I'm still working on the connections to the ignitor terminals and the high voltage inverter.  :)
You did a lot of good work here.  Do you think one set of two batteries is for recovery?

I'm not sure if your circuit for the boards is quite there yet.  Looking at the back, the wires dropping straight down hit every other prong.  And there's also a horizontal cross wire.

The #7 wire with the trigger transformers goes to the yellow stay-con under the screw on the brass, by his palm.  If only the other wires were as easy to spot.  :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 28, 2010, 07:34:46 PM
the circuit board isn't exactly the same but it should work because i understand what it should do.
it only has a different layout.

i know there is no special battery set for recovery.
there are more wires on the battery's and these were probably used to recharge and monitor the voltage.
one more on the first battery to go to a 5 Volts regulator to power the controlling logic.

this center tap configuration is typical for an inverter setup that boosts the voltage up to several Kv's.
therefore the transformer also must have a center tap.
the center tap of the transformer is connected straight to the battery's fat negative wire.
by high speed switching the positive poles to the outer 2 connections of the transformer the high voltage inverter charges up the high voltage capacitors after being rectified by the graetz bridges.
in the image below you can see an example of how two mosfets are used to switch the negative sides of the transformer in this case the center tap is connected to the positive line so these are NPN mosfets.
If my findings are correct Gray was switching the positive line so he has to have used PNP mosfets.

the logic Gray used is also typical for this application.
he used SG3526J and SG1627J high speed switching.
it is not hard to redesign this setup it's a piece of cake  :)



Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 28, 2010, 07:35:53 PM
When you look at the picture with the ic's you can see Gray's writing it say's TP TP TP which stands for Totem Pole configuration.  :)

EDIT:
Made a quick drawing for you to see what i mean.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 29, 2010, 12:02:46 AM
the circuit board isn't exactly the same but it should work because i understand what it should do.
it only has a different layout.

i know there is no special battery set for recovery.
there are more wires on the battery's and these were probably used to recharge and monitor the voltage.
one more on the first battery to go to a 5 Volts regulator to power the controlling logic.

this center tap configuration is typical for an inverter setup that boosts the voltage up to several Kv's.
therefore the transformer also must have a center tap.
the center tap of the transformer is connected straight to the battery's fat negative wire.
by high speed switching the positive poles to the outer 2 connections of the transformer the high voltage inverter charges up the high voltage capacitors after being rectified by the graetz bridges.
in the image below you can see an example of how two mosfets are used to switch the negative sides of the transformer in this case the center tap is connected to the positive line so these are NPN mosfets.
If my findings are correct Gray was switching the positive line so he has to have used PNP mosfets.

the logic Gray used is also typical for this application.
he used SG3526J and SG1627J high speed switching.
it is not hard to redesign this setup it's a piece of cake  :)
So the MOSFETs are in the red case.  How do you get 165V on the center tap?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 29, 2010, 12:28:00 AM
no it was just an example  :) no 165 volt
in Gray's setup the negative wire is connected to the center tap or he used a black wire for the positive pole  :-\.
i'm not sure which year he build this motor so i do not know if there were mosfets available at the time.
i did see some old early transistors.

EDIT:

Here you see the block diagram SG3526 and it is consistent with the board made by Gray.
The output stage is there and i think it does not differ too much from a classic RPWM circuit.
These days it's alot easier because we can use programmable hardware so like i said piece of cake.  :)

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 29, 2010, 01:10:39 AM
So the MOSFETs are in the red case. 

You can see the transformer wiring go into the red case so that is probably correct.  :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 29, 2010, 03:13:09 AM
I agree that the complexity of both sides of that blue board indicates it probably isn't using the simplistic logic circuits we have today.  But this also points out the magnitude of the accomplishment.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 29, 2010, 06:51:01 PM
it certainly does.

i myself have also worked alot with early TTL and CMOS circuits just like the ones gray used and i know what it is like.
today we can simply (re)program the chip and make it do whatever we want. :)

ive started to rebuild the high voltage inverter with microchips and after that i'm going to discharge 6Kv in a cross gap with what Gray called conversion grids
let's see what this puppy can do. :)

by the way i'm starting to think that Gray needed a commutator to switch his CSET's.
so i guess he build a small motor/commutator to switch the tubes at first and then i think he must have decided that the motor could also drive things and scaled it up.

this means the motor is more important for it's switching, then for the HP's it puts out  :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on October 29, 2010, 10:29:32 PM
Ghst, over at EF, came up with a very practical way of discharging the arc across the ends of the grids, although he actually only used one grid.  I encouraged him to add more grids, with the proto board going to the center, but he's offline now so I don't know what progress he's made.  (His grid was actually centered on the proto board, as I understood it.)  He found that the close spaced holes in a proto board act as a multi gap capacitor, since there's a solder ring on both sides of the board.  Looking at Gray's CSETs in the EMA-6 picture, his grids are spaced close enough to also produce this effect, with the HV spark coming in on the right side and the output going to the capacitor's resistor at the bottom.  The epoxy acts as a dielectric to localize the sparks.  I'm sure he won't mind me posting his circuit since he did Open Source it.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on October 29, 2010, 11:34:39 PM
thats not what i have in mind  :)
i will document the experiment so you can see it.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 05, 2010, 04:58:59 PM
Looking at some of my own batteries, the negative post is always on the right when the vents are at the back.  This means the battery polarity shown in reply #31 is correct.  The heavy black cable is negative.  And this may resolve the issue of diode polarity.  The polarity Gray shows in the patent is consistent with these latest pictures, so John Bedini's diagram is not correct.  Gray always shows the cathode of the "one way energy path" pointing at the positive side of the battery, which is what these pictures show with the negative cable connected to the anode.

Still, the black cable going to the anode of one bank of ignitrons is not a conventional wiring.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on November 05, 2010, 06:26:00 PM
you mean the colors?  :)
yea i already noticed Gray used his own colors but it's ok.
as long as i can see where it goes i can understand it.
also it might look like thick wire but it can also be silicon high voltage wire used for neon signs +/- 8 Kv or for inginition systems 35Kv.
That's mostly insulation the wire itself is at the centre and isn't too thick.
I'm still working on the software.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 06, 2010, 03:28:26 AM
I'm still working on the software.
I'm looking forward to your results.

I've also been busy.  It's occurred to me that it's quite likely the key effect with the battery can also be produced with the core tube from a magnetron.  I've got quite a few of these on hand so I'm setting up some more experiments along this line.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on November 06, 2010, 06:49:51 PM
well it never hurts to try but don't fry yourself  :)
Gray's thing was said to be running at about 5Khz but those magnetrons are designed to work in the low Ghz range so i dunno about that.
and they are not realy frequency adjustable like using a trigger or so.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 06, 2010, 09:48:39 PM
well it never hurts to try but don't fry yourself  :)
Gray's thing was said to be running at about 5Khz but those magnetrons are designed to work in the low Ghz range so i dunno about that.
and they are not realy frequency adjustable like using a trigger or so.
Don't worry, I have a healthy respect for electricity and always look out for safety first.

I'm really not sure what frequency Gray was using.  Various people have said 5 or 6 kHz, but the only actual Gray document I've seen stated 200,000 pulses per minute, which is about 3.3 kHz.  Magnetrons can be triggered in the kilohertz range - see patent #2748198 - as long as you still use the magnets, which I won't.  Gray also mentioned single pulses and that's what I'm looking at for now.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 09, 2010, 07:15:07 PM
I did some basic tests with the magnetron tube and got mixed results.  With a heated filament the tube will pass a HV spark in either direction.  But a capacitor will only discharge in one direction.  Even then it makes an arc rather than a spark.
Title: Energy Recovery
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 11, 2010, 03:21:17 AM
I've built a simple version of Ed Gray's circuit to test for energy recovery.  I'm using a magnetron tube, minus the magnets, for the "one way energy path" and my three point discharge electrode pattern in place of the CSET.  I'm attaching the circuit, also shown here:

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/168/recovery.gif

I recently did some tests with the bare tube inside a magnetron I salvaged from a MW oven.  I wanted to see if it would work as a HV diode, and also to see if it produces Secondary Emission.  Due to the tube's capacitance, it will pass a HV spark in either direction.  However, with a capacitor in series with the diode the cap will only discharge in one direction.  (The diode and cap also came from the oven.)  The negative side of the cap has to be connected to the filament.  I also did a test with a car battery in series with the cap's filament wire, only with the positive side of the battery connected to the filament, as Gray shows in his patents.  This test verified that Secondary Emission is occurring because the tube got hot and started smoking after 4 or 5 seconds.  The small cap passing the current from the battery requires a conversion into rf energy, associated with SE.  Due to the overheating I'm not using the battery for most of my tests.

About the first thing I thought of trying was my Arc Switch electrodes.  At this point all I did was run a jumper wire from the filament to the arc - similar to Gray's wire through the recovery battery to the grids.  When this wire got close to the arc there was a bright white, round discharge to the main arc, with a loud pop, and this pop instantly blew the arc out.  This reminded me of Gray's statement that his increase in efficiency depended on the sudden termination of the arc.  So I put a second cap in series with the jumper wire, and this cap DOES charge when the arc blows out.  Without a diode in the loop.  Adding a series inductor increases the sound of the recovery cap's discharge when it's shorted. 

Using a number of arc blowouts doesn't seem to add any extra energy to the recovery cap, so I tried using my 16 uF cap at this location.  After one pulse, the cap's shorting was about as loud as that of the smaller cap.  However, after four pulses the bang from the big cap is MUCH louder.  Also, the blow out spark from the third electrode is different with the bigger cap.  It's longer and more narrow, and shoots into the primary arc.  It looks like White Lightning.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: pop_29203 on November 15, 2010, 03:34:39 AM
@XS-NRG: I think you've done a good job explaining Gray's circuitry. Are you sure that "TP" stands for totem pole? Seems more likely to me that these are "test points". The loop in the wire permits quick attachment of a test probe such as a hook on the end of a scope probe. "TP" is still common to see on circuit boards today, although instead of wire loops a small pin may be used. Sometimes a simple solder pad is all that is provided.

@Jerry: Seriously, you could not ID the power resistor components? I would expect this from a noob, but an experienced researcher?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 16, 2010, 05:31:37 AM
@Jerry: Seriously, you could not ID the power resistor components? I would expect this from a noob, but an experienced researcher?
You have to keep in mind that I'm just an electrician who likes to make sparks, not an electronic engineer.  That kind of resistor is something I've never used for anything.

While we're at it, can you identify the vacuum tube, or what ever, in the right side of this picture?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on November 16, 2010, 06:30:19 PM
It's OK.
Nobody's perfect.

Jerry ,are you reffering to the PET water bottle?
That was there so they could drink some while taking it apart.
Which i think is about the worst thing you can do!!!!!!!

I for one would have replaced the dead old battery's by fresh ones and grease it up and then fire it up to see if it still runs.
too late for that unfortunatly. :(
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 16, 2010, 07:14:11 PM
XS-NRG:

Are you sure this is a water bottle?  It looks like the bottom has been crimped, with an electrode running up through it, and it's standing on the external connector.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 16, 2010, 07:23:25 PM
BTW I just did another experiment with my magnetron circuit.  There's four MW oven capacitors in parallel, rather than one.  Now the arc strikes almost instantly and is heavier.  And it only takes two pops to fill the big cap.  After that there isn't any discharge from the third electrode, even if it actually touches the main arc.  This reinforces my opinion that this is a recovery circuit rather than a simple charging circuit.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 17, 2011, 09:01:12 AM
Dear E. V. Gray Researchers,

Here is what I have on the history of the "Brown Motor" from my interviews and research.

1. This Pulsed Motor was aquired by AL Francouer of Yhack, BC. He has taken delivery of it and reports that it is the E1 pulse motor - since it is stamped with a "1" in several locations. The other Pulse Motors that he has in his collection are stamped #4 and #5. The E3 case is in another collection and is stamped #3. By elemination that makes the "Purple" Motor #2.

2. This pulse Motor was built circa 1963 as an improved kind of industrial high torque high efficiency invention by Marvin Cole. It never was one of the true Free-Energy Engines that were constructed starting in about 1967. However, it was used as a test bed to explore some of the OU processes that were discovered in 1964-1965.

3. It was put into secure storage by E.V. Gray for several years along with the other 5 industrial Pulse Motors. This is why it was not confiscated by the LA DA in 1974.

4. In 1980 Gray retreived these old Pulse Motor prototypes and had his technician Mr. Nelson Schlaft "Rocky" rebuild them so that they would operate on 5KV derived from 240VAC at 100 Amps. The original thyratrons and control vacuum tubes were replaced with ignitrons and all of the internal electromagnets (rotor and stator) rewound with larger (#14 awg) magnet wire. The Commutator was rewired to suite a simple pulse topology employed.

5. According to Mr. Schlaft: The batteries on the cart were for looks only "they couldn't turn the motor for 2 seconds". The motor in its new configuration consumed 10 KVA just to operate with no load. The ignitorns were triggered with 1500 DC that was derived from the 5KV using zener diodes (as shown in one of the John Riley photos). The large 2"x4"x30" component is a large HV diode that was added to damp flyback oscillations after the ignitrons fired. It is unknown what the purpose of the gray box of low voltage - high current electronics was intended for. It couild have been original equipment maybe.

6. With the new modifications the motor would now start from a dead stop and was abel to reverse direction, something that the original pulse motor couldn't do. The outboard DC genmerator/motor was used as the start motor ass well as an active load to measure efficiency.

7. Gray eventually used this revised motor as a mockup for a fake free-energy engine in his promotion videos. He passed this off as a working free-energy engine while providing documentation and test reports that were taken for the original EMA2. His problem was that he didn't have the money (or the complete technical knowlege) to reproduce any of the sucessful free-energy engines in that time frame.(or any time after that)

8. Apparently this stratage worked because whe was able to raise about $27 million from a Caymen Island Brokerage Firm. He was later swindled out of this money.

9. Dorothy McPhillips took possession of Gray's equipment after his death. Mr. Russell Audrey (a later investor) attempted to collect this equipment via a court order. According to Ms. McPhillips she was soon approached by two men who claimed to be agents for the NSA. They informed her that they were going to confiscate all of the equipment (without compensation) as a matter of national security. Ms. McPhillips then notified Mr. Audrey, who owned a trucking firm in Kansas, and he was on site in 24 hours with a crew of men to load up the equipment. Ms. McPhillips setteled for a much smaller amount of money and then spread the rummer that she had all this equipment taken to the local dump.

10. Mr. Audrey took this equipment back to Dodge City, Kansas and spent a lot of money attempting to get some of the motors operational. He failed and all of the hardware eventually went into storage.

11. Recently Mr. Audrey's family contracted Mr. John Riley of California to examine this equipment, since he is well versed in high voltage electronics, and to act as a broker to liquidate it should he determine that there is no useful technology remaining.

12. This motor was never a free-energy engine and if it had been it was severly butchered in 1980. It is however, part of this most interesting saga and deserves to be preserved in its own right. There are a few crumbs of technical informatiopn to be extracted from this motors design, since it does hold the foundation of the later sucessful free-energy engines.

Spokane1

PS. The E1 "Brown Motor" has been sold. The E2 "Purple Motor" is still for sale along with the "Trigger Cart".

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 18, 2011, 01:18:13 AM
Thank You.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: sigma16 on January 18, 2011, 01:31:48 AM
When you look at the picture with the ic's you can see Gray's writing it say's TP TP TP which stands for Totem Pole configuration.  :)

TP usually means "Test Point".

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Test-Point-(electronics)-(TP).html

Look at the picture and these points are loops for connecting hook probes.

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 18, 2011, 01:55:53 AM
TP usually means "Test Point".

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Test-Point-(electronics)-(TP).html

Look at the picture and these points are loops for connecting hook probes.

Whatever...
Now you can E-Masturbate because you made another post
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 18, 2011, 01:56:35 AM
TP usually means "Test Point".

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Test-Point-(electronics)-(TP).html

Look at the picture and these points are loops for connecting hook probes.

Whatever...
Now you can E-Masturbate because you made another post including a link to click Oh Yeah!! HAHA
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: sigma16 on January 18, 2011, 04:13:39 AM
Whatever...
Now you can E-Masturbate because you made another post including a link to click Oh Yeah!! HAHA

You can shove your "totem pole" up your arse.  Might light that bulb over your head that way.   ROFLMAO!!!

Why don't you tell everyone about your OU device.  Here's a picture of it:
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 18, 2011, 05:01:58 AM
Seriously dude, what do you want?

I think you are the biggest fool on the planet, and i have decided to stop responding to your posts because it only adds to the noise, and you are not worth my time.
My only advice to you is to go and seek some help for your "posting addiction"

This was my last response to you.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: sigma16 on January 18, 2011, 06:16:03 AM
Getting back on topic, did Ed's Motor actually work as claimed?  Any comments on his tube?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 18, 2011, 07:56:40 AM
Getting back on topic, did Ed's Motor actually work as claimed?  Any comments on his tube?

Dear Sigma 16,

Between Marvin Cole and Richard Hackenberger there were 15 rotary devices built. Six of those were a new kind of industrial Non-OU Pulse motor, these were called the E-motors E1, E2, E3, etc. When the non-classical OU process was discovered in 1964 the engineering direction changed and a new design constructed. This was the begining of the true Free-Energy Engines these were numbered EMA1, EMA2, EMA3 etc. There were seven versions and two variations. It is believed that it was the 10 HP EMA2 model that was submitted for testing by Crosby Research. These tests are the only 3rd party verification as to the validity of this technology. Here is what was reported:

COP: 275   Power Level: 7.6 KW   Note: 90% of the power output was in torque and not electricity

The later EMA Free-Energy Engines were built, but were never tested by outside firms. However the EMA4 model was rated at 32 HP. It was then upgraded to become the EMA4-E2 variation with a power rating of 100 HP. John Bedini reported that he observed this engine produce 87 HP (if Gray's instruments were accurate). This was the peak of the technology in 1973. After that it was largely down hill since the original inventor had left left town. The EMA5 never made it past the fabrication of the case. The EMA6 only produced 2 HP.  Richard Hackenberger started to figure out how things worked and got the EMA6-E2 variation operational, but over looked EMI shielding and brought down the wrath of the FCC upon himself and Gray. There is some evidence that the last Free Energy Engine (EMA7) was built in Kalona, Iowa in 1979 and is called the "Blue" engine. Nothing is known of its permormance, but it was important enough to steal in the middle of the night. Hackenberger died a few weeks after this escape (1980). Gray spent the rest of his life attempting to sell this powerful technology that he himself only knew a portion there of.

The Conversion Element Switching Tube (CEST) is a conterversial component. I have my oipinions based upon my historical research. Others believe that it was the heart and soul of the OU process based upon the exsistance of the patents and the Bedini Field Notes. However, all camps agree that the foundation of this non-classical OU process resides in some complex phenomena associated from the discharge of a DC arc. I maintain that the sucessful process took place within the engine itself. This was certainly not disclosed in the Pulse Engine patent, but there are many useful hints in the illustrations. [Speaking of the patent, in my opinion disreguard about 80% of the text as being misleading- including 50% of the power supply schematic. Stick to the illustrations, that is where I think the truth is to be found.] Othes continue exploring variations of fixed length arc and grid setups. Which is understandable becasue they are easy to build, and besides they just look neat when operating. A few researchers have even reported interesting observations with these kinds of experiments.

Someone might get lucky and discover some method to extract OU from a fixed electrode arc system - and I think that approach holds some promise, but from all that I have been able to assertain that was not the the sucessful method used by Marvin Cole. Now Mr. Hackenberger attempted to remove the dynamic arc process from inside the engine (1974) to make it far simpler to machine when he built the EMA6 under duress. It appears the he was the one who came up with the "CEST" design in the first place. [Check the Phinney reference patent in the introduction of the Pulse Motor patent to get an idea as to what was originialy intended for this device to do] That design failed. He later removed the three "CEST's" from the EMA6 in June of 1976 and went back to a system very close to what was in the EMA4 engine's design. That is when the FCC came calling, so he must have gotten something right that time. From then on EMI shielding was a priority for Mr. Gray.

This technology is powerful and can be built from the materials found in the Mouser and McMaster Castalogs. It is not simple. It is a complex electromagnetic/electrostatic system that involves at least two different cycles (or more) of operation. The primary output is torque. There is enough recovered electrostatic build up to recharge the pulse storage capacitors. The low voltage charge carriers from a lead acid battery are a requirement for operation. The recoverd harvested energy can't be contained by the battereis. Some other modern engineering approach will be necessary to solve this problem - once we discover what the true non-classical process was.

In short: The first four Free Energy Engines worked well with the EMA4 working very very well, The EMA5 & EMA6 fell on thier nose. We don't know about the EMA7.

For me the CEST was a failed attempt to simplify the construction of the Free Energy Engines. There is a lot of circumstantial history to explain why the CEST came about and why Mr. Hackenberger had good reason to think this approach would work.

Gray didn't start to patent the "CEST" device till 1984 when he needed something interesting to sell to overseas investors.

I hope this short summary answers your fundamental questions.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 18, 2011, 02:50:11 PM
I think you mean CSET in stead of CEST but thanks again for the info. :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: sigma16 on January 18, 2011, 04:44:01 PM
Thanks Spokane1.

Found a little more here:

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/TechnicalDiscussion/RichardHackenberger/index.html

I know about the increased force they talk about.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 18, 2011, 07:51:12 PM
Thanks Spokane1.

Found a little more here:

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/TechnicalDiscussion/RichardHackenberger/index.html

I know about the increased force they talk about.  Interesting.

There is a lot of good information in Mr. Hackenberger's and I recommend several readings for serious researchers.

Keep in mind that when this report was written:

1. E.V. Gray had absolutly no patent protection in place for this technology at that time. Therefore Ritchard was limited as to what he could say. In fact I think he said to much given their level of coverage.

2. Richard was giving his best explaination he could as he was able to assertain from observation of the working prototypes left behind by Marvin Cole. At that time he didn't have the complete story or else the EMA6 would have worked from the get-go. However, what he shares is a pretty good starting point.

3. What he doesn't share is just where does this arc reaction take place that does all this kinetic manipulation. If some amount of  kinetic energy is a required input feed stock to this process, then it can't take place in a fixed electrode system. He would have saved reverse engineers years if he had disclosed the specific reaction site of this novel process.

4. Richard also hints at how a good portion of the manifested energy is recovered. Many researchers assume it is in current generated from the collapsing fileds of the engine electromagnets. However Mr. Hackenberger specifically states that it is from the collapsing of an electrostatic field from the engine plates. This is a far different process and one normally overlooked by us classicaly trained individuals who are not exposed to electrostatic systems in common electronic-electrical equipment.

I could ramble on for hours about the speculative engineering aspects of this technology. But none of it would mean crap until I build and test all of these assertions. Its a slow process to build rotary appratus even with a verticle mill and lathe on hand (and keep a full time job), but I'm moving at a snails pace.

A recent breakthrough may have changed all that. Do you recall the little 3" diameter EMA4 model (which I call the EMA0) that Jack Sacganetti had a photograph of in his 1973 article? Well this model has come into my possession. After taking it apart a whole new world has been reveled to me about the operation of this technology. I have been able to eleminate several compeating theories and focus on the ones that are represented in the fine detail that this model holds.

I'm composing a long paper on how this model acts as the Rosetta Stone (for me). I have all the photos, drawings, calculations, SPICE III simulations, patent illustrations, and support patent illustrations all combined in one document. Right now I'm up to 50 pages and it may well go over 100. Peter Lindemann has agreeded to edit and add to this document. He will make it available on his website in a downloadable color pdf format for a small fee.

Peter is alo editing a 40 page document about the time line of all the motors/engines. This contains all that we know about the 15 motors/engines to date. He is tied up for the next couple of months so it may be awhile before any of these papers are readyto down load.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: sigma16 on January 18, 2011, 08:27:41 PM
Notice that the Gray tube patent is for "inductive loads".  What if the tube produces some effect in an inductor rather than just current?  That would throw a lot of BS explanations to the wind.

EDIT:
Looked at patent 4,595,975 for Ed Gray and he says something to the effect that an electrostatic charge is induced in the tub grids and this produces a very strong magnetic field in the inductive load.  It sounds as though the tube is nothing more than a fancy switch to produce the "effect" in the inductive load.  Interesting.  so all attempts to replicate this tube and produce usable power were in vain.  ROFLMAO!!!  OH THE IRONY!  This makes more sense now.  I mean why would you need a special motor if you had an OU generator?  Ed had the "effect" but not a generator that used the effect to produce electric current directly.  So he used the effect to produce a motor that could then generate electric current. 
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: sigma16 on January 18, 2011, 11:32:32 PM
Ed makes some interesting statements and a demonstration here:

http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?page_id=955

Quote
All the corporate officers agreed that they are determined to get around the money roadblocks and bestow the discovery upon the world.

Tattler was given a thorough demonstration of Gray's "impossible-but-true" methods for using electricity.

The first demonstration proved that Gray uses a totally different form of electrical current --- a powerful, but "cold" form of the energy.

A 6-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires ran from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to Gray's discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets, each weighing a pound and a quarter.

"Now, if you tried to charge those two magnets with juice form that battery and make them do what I'm going to make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the magnets would get extremely hot", Gray explained.

"I want you to watch what happens."

As Lens activated the battery, a voltmeter gradually rose to 3,000 volts, At that point, Gray closed a switch and there was a loud popping sound. The top magnet hurled into the air with tremendous force and was caught by Hackenberger. A terrific jolt of electricity had propelled the top magnet more than two feet into the air --- but the magnet remained cold.

"The amazing thing", Hackenberger said, "is that only 1% of the energy was used --- 99% went back into the battery."

Gray explained, "The battery can last for a long time, because most of the energy returns to it. The secret to this is in the capacitors and in being able to split the positive."

When Gray said "split the positive", the faces of two knowledgeable physicists screwed up in bewilderment. Normally, electricity consists of positive and negative particles. But Gray's system is capable of using one or the other separately and effectively.

"He means we have to rewrite the physics textbooks", Hackenberger grinned. It has been the engineer's job in recent months to formulate gray's system and put it into writing.

"That's not an easy job because this system actually defies everything I've ever learned."

Gray said, "I never had no schooling in electronics or physics, so nobody told me it was impossible."

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 19, 2011, 08:51:17 AM
Notice that the Gray tube patent is for "inductive loads".  What if the tube produces some effect in an inductor rather than just current?  That would throw a lot of BS explanations to the wind.

EDIT:
Looked at patent 4,595,975 for Ed Gray and he says something to the effect that an electrostatic charge is induced in the tub grids and this produces a very strong magnetic field in the inductive load.  It sounds as though the tube is nothing more than a fancy switch to produce the "effect" in the inductive load.  Interesting.  so all attempts to replicate this tube and produce usable power were in vain.  ROFLMAO!!!  OH THE IRONY!  This makes more sense now.  I mean why would you need a special motor if you had an OU generator?  Ed had the "effect" but not a generator that used the effect to produce electric current directly.  So he used the effect to produce a motor that could then generate electric current.

Dear Sigma 16,

It took me years and several interviews to sort the true technical grit from the misleading statements in the patent documents. After a while I followed the money to figure out was was "bull" and what was real. Unfortunately, among his family and associates, Mr. Gray was known to stretch the truth a whole lot. In fact what he didn't know - he made up. (as time goes on I find that he knew even less)

It took me a while to get over this reality back in 2007 when I had the chance to interview Mr. Nelson Schlaft in Palmdale, CA. According to "Rocky" Mr. Gray didn't know Ohms Law after working with this stuff for a decade. According to John Bedini (1973) he didn't even know what a thyratron was. He was a great auto-body fender man and a great promoter. But being knowledgeable about the microphysics of this fantastic process he didn't have a clue.(But he knew it was PFM) He did know the general things that were needed to make some kind of Free-Energy Engine, but not all of them. He was unable to help out Mr. Hackenberger as they stood on the brink of financial ruin in 1976. He was unable to fix his "own" engine in 1973 when the Japanese were ready to sign a billion dollar deal for Asian licensing rights.

If Gray had known so much about his tube, engine, and Electrostatic Generator, then why didn't he build any one of these devices in the decade after 1980 instead of making bogus video props? [The Electrostatic Generator only had $58 worth of parts in it] He was certainly in need of working prototypes to sell his equipment. As it was, according to his son Mark, two different military men came calling to observe what he had going at the time while in Counsel, ID and they commented " you insult my intelligence with such a foolish technology"(or words to that effect).

Follow the money and you can better separate the important reality from the gobbledygook that you read in the patent documents. I only started making real progress when I came to accept the idea that Gray was a salesman and promoter - not a scientist, self trained or otherwise. According to his son Dr. James Gray all of those schools that Gray said he attended in the military are pure lies.

All of this is just my opinion from my research and judgement. (My posts are worth exactly what you pay for them)

You will have to sort out the fact from the fantasy for yourself to determine just what clues you want to follow and what comments your are going to pass over. Its not easy. I will have my personal analysis available in a couple of months - right or wrong.

This is not a cheap hobby to follow, at least if you take the road I'm going. Select well what ideas you want to invest your time, money and inspiration in. You can spend years exploring some concept that Gray made up and you will most likely eventually end up with a collection of useless custom apparatus. (But I'm sure you will learn something from the effort). Consider all the serious experimenters who made reproduction pulse motors (Porter, Lennon, and other individuals on Youtube) based upon the Pulse Engine patent, only to find out that there was not enough torque developed to turn even the smallest load.

If you want to follow the CEST route talk to Mr. Gary Magratten who has spent five years and 10's of thousands of dollars following the tube patents. He is a structural engineer and had the help of an MIT electronics engineer with some generous funding to boot. He has studied just about every thing known about a DC arc. Start by asking for his 86 page report on the arc physics as it pertains to the Gray tube. Once you get that document under your belt you will be ready to explore your own ideas and hopefully advance what is already known.

We can discuss what Gray said, what he meant, what we think he meant, what he might have meant till the cows come home. What counts, when the rubber meets the road, is what our experiments tell us. Nothing that I or anybody else says (or posts) will matter a squat until we have verifiable data that others can reproduce.

There are just a few comments that Gray ever said that I consider useful. The rest is, well ...... you get the idea. So far, what Hackenberger has written seems 80-90% correct. To bad that he didn't write more. But, given the protection they had I'm surprised that he wrote as much as he did.

The real technology clues, for me, didn't come from the text in any of the patents. They came from the generous GD document photos, audio tapes, and business documentation. They also came from the patent illustrations and studying the references to the support patents. The availability of the EMA0 has just taken my personal insight (which could be completely wrong) to another level. All of the interviews I've done have only shed light on the business saga, but nary a usable technical clue on how this stuff actually worked.

Before you take the patent(s) text as gospel know full well who E.V.Gray was, what his intent was, and just what his degree of technical competency was. (I hope he spelled better than I do)

Other than that, best of luck in your personal E.V. Gray adventure. Anyone who takes a solder gun to attempt to figure out just some small part of this technology has my respect no matter how far we diverge in our technical opinions or the analysis of the meager clues that are left to us.

No matter how much it appears that I badmouth Gray for his technical ability he still was the founder of this technology and without him none of this would have happened. He utilized all the skills he had to bring this technology to the world and was beaten down every step of the way. He spent his life in this pursuit. I sincerely respect his and Mr. Hackenberger's tenacity and gumption.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: CompuTutor on January 19, 2011, 09:00:19 AM
AMEN !
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 20, 2011, 09:38:35 PM
Dear XS-NRG

For some reason I keep getting error messages when I attempt to respond to you personal message. Perhaps its this vacation computer I'm using this week. I shall respond here.

I feel your pain. I withdrew from E.V. Gray research for almost a year wfter I interviewed Nelson Schlaft for 3 days.  All the fond opinions I had of Gray came crashing on the rocks of reality. All the emerging theories I had about the evolution of this technology went up in smoke. I had already written about 3 papers that were now largely toast based on what I had learned. It is amazing just how big of a castle we can build from sand.

Well, as it turn out Gray was not Nicola Tesla reincarnated. I thought it was really neat that someone could build equipment like this by being self taught. Such was not the case. Gray was a working man that had this magic dropped in his lap. He did the best he could with it. The real technical advancement came from a Mr. Marvin Cole. Only two people knew who Cole was (Dr. James Gray and George Gray). I know almost nothing about Mr. Cole, who he was, what he thought, what his struggles were, or what kind of car he drove. All we have is the equipment he left behind (that Gray claimed was his creation). It's really hard to make someone a hero when you know so little about them. I certainly like to have heros. It helps deal with the isolation one feels when bucking mainstream science.

Never the less, the technology that Gray fumbled with is "Pure F___king Magic" (PFM). There is only the Crosby Report to validate the importance of what these people were devoting their lives to. But a serious review of the emerging historical events shows that there is a lot of other evidence to show that a number of technically intelligent people were really impressed with what they saw in the 1972-1974 period.

Marvin Cole left the project and told Gray to not whisper a word that he had anything to do with this equipment as he left town stating that he would never return or see Gray again. (A small amount of money might have changed hands). What freaked him out was the obvservation of an associated anti-gravity phenomena. He could just barely deal with the Free-Energy aspects of this technology. The anit-gravity thing push him over the edge. Fortunaly he didn't make his living in establishment research - he was a chef by trade not by training. Mr. Cole appears to have been the independant individualist that was deathly afraid of being commendeered into some secret government (not necessaraly the US) laboratory to work as a confined slave for the rest of his life.
Can't say that I blame him.

The good news is that when you finally sort out was was valaid and what was crap we end up with the EMA4 Free-Energy Engine as being the zenith of this technology. It just so happens that this is the device we have the most information on. We have the Pulse Engine patent, the numerous GD photos, the Hackenberger engineering reports, and now the EMA0 model. It's not much but it a heck of a lot more than what I started out with in 2002.

To me the CEST device has been an unfortunate distraction from the sucessful technology. I spent 2.5 years building CEST devices and popping arcs in a number of experiments and configurations. I didn't observe a single event that would qualify as "Radient Energy". After studing the history of what happen when and by who it became clear to me that Mr. Hackenberger had made a wrong turn in has attempt to improve on what was. I'm going back and doing it the way tha Cole did - or at least as much as I can descern.

Hang in there, this technology is real, powerful and important.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 20, 2011, 10:43:20 PM
Dear XS-NRG

Hang in there, this technology is real, powerful and important.

Spokane1

I don't think so.
Someone just said those batteries under the cart were not powefull enough to run that motor but i know better...
That's a very powerfull source and you can certainly drive that motor for an extended peroide of time.\
I work with these types of battery's and i know what they can do.

I have lost faith, i build several CSET's and i was never able to see anything unusual, so the fact that this was all a joke does not come as a surprise.
But yes i feel bad because when even the big ones turn out to be a hoax then not many is left...
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 21, 2011, 01:54:34 AM
Here found a better pic.
This was build to the specs of the patent.

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: poynt99 on January 21, 2011, 02:10:14 AM
Here found a better pic.
This was build to the specs of the patent.

marco, so it is you.

 :-\
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 21, 2011, 06:48:51 AM
marco, so it is you.

 :-\

Who said it wasn't me and what does it matter ??
You now have Grumpy, and Lawrence the Clown, the nutty professor, those 3 can amuse you for the rest of your life... so what are you doing here?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: poynt99 on January 21, 2011, 06:50:59 AM
Who said it wasn't me and what does it matter ??
You now have Grumpy, and Lawrence the Clown, the nutty professor, those two can amuse you for the rest of your life... so what are you doing here?

marco, the only important question is this: Why are you so darn bitter?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 21, 2011, 06:56:48 AM
marco, the only important question is this: Why are you so darn bitter?

I recently quit smoking.
HAHAHA  ;D

Why do i need to answer yours if you do not answer mine?
I'm only so towards certain people if that tells anything at all....
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: poynt99 on January 21, 2011, 07:10:26 AM
I recently quit smoking.
HAHAHA  ;D

Why do i need to answer yours if you do not answer mine?
I'm only so towards certain people if that tells anything at all....

Good for you on the quitting smoking ;)

Well, I'm one of the few that took an interest in your Correa work, and I've always commended you on all your works. You were banned form OUR, but you had no real interest in being there anyway, that was obvious. So you can't blame me for that, it was your own doing. Then you came back as "microcontroller", and I did not ban you. I have nothing at all against you, and I think you know that. We've had good chats etc.

Perhaps all that might tell you something...

It ought to be fairly obvious, but I'm here because I want to be, and because I feel I can contribute in a positive way and benefit from postings here and there. I still get a certain gratification from helping out where I am able, and that's yet another reason.

Why are you so darn bitter towards me then?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 21, 2011, 07:11:59 AM
I don't think so.
Someone just said those batteries under the cart were not powefull enough to run that motor but i know better...
That's a very powerfull source and you can certainly drive that motor for an extended peroide of time.\
I work with these types of battery's and i know what they can do.

I have lost faith, i build several CSET's and i was never able to see anything unusual, so the fact that this was all a joke does not come as a surprise.
But yes i feel bad because when even the big ones turn out to be a hoax then not many is left...

Dear XS-NRG,

If you have taken the time and personal energy (not to mention cost) to accmulate all that test gear and build that good of a CEST replecation then you indeed are one of the "inner circule". (let me know if you need some additional modules for the Tek scope)

I was the one who said the batteries on the Brown Cart "would not run the motor for 2 seconds". That was a direct quote from the man who rebuilt that cart in 1980, Mr. Nelson Schlaft (made in June of 2007).

I realize this is some what of an exergeration since we both know that 4 large batteries like that could hold up to 250 A-hrs at 24 volts. That's enough to run a golf cart thorugh at least a 72 hole course and still get back to the club house. What Mr. schlaft was saying was that the modified Pulse Motors now required a huge amount of classical energy to operate (after he had messed around with them). Somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 KVA with only the small DC generator as a load.

When Mr. Gray made a stock selling trip to the Mid-West in the early 70's all of the motors/engines he demonstrated originally did operate from their onboard batteries. When he made that same stock selling trip in 1982 he had to rent a 50 KVA generator to go on with the show because the 240 AC circuits availabe to him kept blowing the breakers. Obviously something had changed.

It appears you had as much luck with your CEST design (nice craftsmanship) as I did years ago. Well put that nice well built trophy on your fireplace and move on to bigger fish. Let me spin a short yarn or two and consider what I have observed by looking for the truth between the smoke and mirrors.

All the following comments are my personal speculations, assumptions, and WAGS: until proven or disproven with working hadware. If I say this now I will not have to repeate it several times below. I shall forgo all the analysis, history, and corralations that lead to these conclusions. But, if you are interested I would be glad to share my past discovery process with any researcher who works with hardware.

1. The CEST is a waste of time in its present form as it was presented in the 1986 patents. It was a failed idea that was needed to reduce the complexity of the HV switching requirements found in the EMA4 engine. We have better and cheaper solutions these days - let's use them.

2. The EMA4 Free-Energy Engine is what you should consider focusing on. Not the Failed EMA6 or all the Pulse Motors (E1 - E5) that Al Francouer is assembling into his personal collection. Those models were never Free-Energy Engines in the first place. It appears that Marvin discovered the non-classical process when working with the E5 motor (in 1964) - the all plastic case design. In fact Mr. Cole and Gray didn't start out looking for a Free-Energy Engine in 1957 anyway. They were hoping to develop a high torque, low speed, high efficiency industrial electric motor. The Free- Energy process was discovered along the way in 1964 or so.

3. The non-classical process takes place within the engine case. Not the power supply and certainly not the CEST.

4. The heart and soul of the non-classical event is a DC arc that is struck between the stator sections and the rotor sections. Once this arc is established it is stretched for some 13.5 degrees then self quenches. The real kicker is that this arc is stretched across the surface of a particular dielectric with unique electrical properties. It is believed that the dielectric is an industrial plastic made by Dupont called "Delrin" or Polyformaldhyde or Actil.

5. In addition to the stretching process the arc (and the dielectric interpole Delrin blocks) are exposed to a moderate magnetic field created between the "Minor" electromagnets. When the arc is quenched a high voiltage RF electrostatic field is applied at about 90 degrees to the previous electromagnetic field. The RF ring is created between the faces of the "Minor" electromagnets. It is the result of stored magnetic energy in the coils that is oscillating with its own parasitic shunt capacitance. Simulations show a frequency around 200 KHz, but anthing above 50 KHz should get some reaction according to Patric Flanagan's patent with RF stimulated dielectrics. This is a high voltage field approaching 7 KV and lasts for several milliseconds.

4. Something happens under these special circumstances. The results are two fold: a) a huge pulse of torque between the electrodes (the tops of the cores) of the "Minor" electromagnets and 2) a huge electrostatic buildup in the interpole dielectric blocks.

5. This electrostatic charge is harvested by means of reverse electrostatic induction. The hidden design of the EMA4 is very similiar to the design of an electrostatic motor. The aluminum bars upon which the stator electromagnets are mounted on are individually insulated from the case and each other. With the structure of the stator they form one big variable capacitor. As the motor rotates this capacitance changes. The lead-acid battery introduces low energy charge carriers into the variable capacitor at maximum capacitance. By using diodes and the rotation of the stator the total  capacitance reduces thus rasing the voltage potential between the plates and the rotor. At maximum voltage the depleated storage capacitors are switched into the circuit to absorb this non-classical charge. This recharges the capacitors for the next cycle. However the poor storage battery gets hit with an electrostatic pulse it was never designed to handle. The result in 1973 was exploding battereis. I think we can better to solve that issue nowdays.

If you can follow this brief discription with out drawings or schematics you have to be one smart fellow (or lady).

This is how I believe (at them moment) the magic was created. Mr. Ken Sholders has done some interesting work with fixed distance arcs and the creation of anamolous "Charge clusters". He doesn't apply the magnetic field or the 90- degree RF electrostatic field nor does he dymanicaly stretch his arc. Yet he still generates a small population of some kind of wierd particule that contains a huge amount of energy. I suspect that something like this is going on in the arc process that Marvin Cole discovered accidentaly but his production of the anamolous particles was a couple orders of magnitude greater. At least this is waht I'm going to follow up on.

This research is not cheap and it's not simple and it takes a lot of classical engineering to arrive at the non-classical process. This is where my mouth is and this is where I'm putting my time, money and energy until I fail completly (a real possibility), I find a better solution with additional real world experimentation, or someone else comes up with a better idea. (and I shall appluad them when they do).

The EMA0 model helps explain how the electrostatic portion of the engine was wired. The stator and rotor are wired in a "Delta" fashion which is odd for a DC circuit but makes sense. The GD photos have provided numerous clues to arrive at the extreamily summed up conclusions I've listed above. I'm sure anyone of us can take this very same data and come up with hundreds of valid conclusions. But we have to start some where. This is where I've stuck my spade in the ground.

In a few months I plan to write a paper on my assesment on this whole CEST thing. May I use the photo of your replication as part of the discussion? In my opinion, far to many resourceful hardware researchers (myself included) have/are expending their energies on a dead end road. We need to get all the data, photos, and attempted replications in one sock (paper) so we don't all keep trying to re-invent this broken wheel.

Now there are others like Aaron who continue to find interesting effects with fixed arc systems. I think they are diggin a new row and breaking new ground. I wish them the best, but I don't believe this is how Mr. Cole acheived a COP of 275.00 at the power levels he did.


Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Herger on January 21, 2011, 07:16:23 AM
This is very interesting. What is the best source of information on how Cole did things?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 21, 2011, 08:50:50 AM
This is very interesting. What is the best source of information on how Cole did things?

Dear Herger,

I'm glad you asked, because it appears that the reference material I thought was well distributed in this research community has not been available.

In 2005 a elderly man, who wishes to be know only as GD, approached Peter Lindemann and John Benini at a convention. He claimed he had been a previous investor in the E.V. Gray venture. He had a collection of photos taken from April 1974 to June 1976 he wanted to share with serious researchers. At the time he requested that these photos not be posted on the Internet in total. However one or two shots here and there was acceptable. John and Peter complied with his request and these photos were only made to serious researchers whom they knew. Myself and Al Francouer (and others whom I don't know) being fortunate to be allowed this information. Some of the photos were released as circumstances allowed.

If you do a Goggle search on E.V. Gray images any photo that is in color and is not the Valentine color photo of the EMA6 at the Sportsmans Lodge - then it came from the GD collection. There were about 42 photos in this initial collection - about half of them useful, but out of focus and degraded from the scanning process.

In 2009 Peter suggested that I contact GD myself and see if he was willing to share a little more. I booked a reservation and was able to meet with GD personally. His security concerns had abated somewhat but he still wanted to remain in the shadows. He provided me with the original photos and slides taken at the time. I took these to Kinko's and had them rescanned at the highest resolution. For $250 in reproduction fees I had a 4.5 GB DVD disc of all the original photos and a few new ones. In the months following GD provided me with about 90 sheets of business documents: letters, stockholders minutes, commentary, articles, and some of GD's notes taken at the time. He later provided me with a set of six CD audio phone conversations he had with Richard Hackenberger at various times and the events at the 1976 stock holders meeting.

The most important thing GD provided (beside the very useful photos) was hours of his experiences with "Hack", he didn't spend to much time with Gray. With this information I was really able to fill in the important events that were taking place in 1972 - 1974. I also got a better idea as to how to sort out the successful Cole technology form several of Hack's failed honest attempts. Now I was better able to understand how this exchanging technology failed to make it to the main stream.

Half of these photos were of the EMA4 Free-Energy Engine. This was Cole's work and not Hack's.
There are about 6 photos that hold the important clues. I posted these and explained why they were important on this site, but not this thread (2008). I also started my campaign against the CEST as well. Nothing ever happened to them - that I know of, and I don't blame anyone for that. The ideas were to forigen to the mainstream OU concepts at the time, and probably still are.

Without well written commentary, a schematic, drawings, additional photos, and supporting classical references, and useable simulations,  a few stand alone fuzzy photos and a few notes are probably as useful as wet toilet paper.

I hope to rectify this situation with the upcoming paper (book?) that Peter and I are working on. It will all be there, all of the useful photos, drawings, (I'm good with AutoCAD 2011 - at least 2D), recorded comments, schematics, and anything useful that relates to the nut and bolts of how I think this technology was put together. It will all be open source, except for the fee Peter wants to charge for the cost of maintaining his web site and billing services. I'm not planning to receive a dime form this publication. In the mean time I'd doing my own hardware experiments. I have just finished the machining and winding of a set of reproduction full size "Major" and "Minor" electromagnets. I need to test these units to establish what their electrical parameters are for these odd size inductors. Next starts the exploration of the physics of the stretched arc with apparatus that has already been constructed (had to use That new vertical mill for something). After that the various excitation fields will be added one at a time. A lot of work. Hope to keep everyone posted. -but I work at a snails pace.

Since this information will be disclosed in a public forum the foundations of this technology (If correct) can not be patented by anybody anywhere ever. However, there is a lot of room for pantent able improvements, variations, alternate uses, combined technologies, miniaturization, and any other useful application one can think of for this novel technology. (even the anti-gravity phenomena if it is ever rediscovered again). Go out there and make some money with this, but make darn sure it works first and that I'm not blowing a bunch of hot air that sounds good right now.


For me the GD collection has been the sign posts while the EMA0 model has been the cherry on top of the ice cream. A few supporting patents sent to me by friends have tuned out to have been the technical keys. And again I could be all wrong on this, but there will be plenty of information for you to make your own judgment as to how you think it all went together. I firmly believe that it went together some how. I've spent about $50,000 and almost 10 years of spare time on this venture and I think there are others who have spent even more.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 21, 2011, 04:18:10 PM
Do you have any info on the coils in this motor? :

http://universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/Close-up%20of%20EMA%204-E2%20stator%20coils%20and%20wiring.html
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 21, 2011, 09:17:20 PM
Do you have any info on the coils in this motor? :

http://universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/Close-up%20of%20EMA%204-E2%20stator%20coils%20and%20wiring.html

Dear XS-NRG,

Just a little:

1. The "Major" electromagnet is a transformer, not a straight inductor. One lead of the secondary connects directly to the laminated core, much like an automotive induction coil.

2. Both cores of the "Minor" electromagnet and "Major" Electromagnet are electricalloy connected to each other.

3. Each electromagnet is connected in series with its partner in the back. So front and back electromagnets are connected in series. This complicates the wiring of the "Major" electromagnet secondaries.

4. The "Minor" electromagnet is a straight inductor with an inductance around 0.807 mH using #19 AWG magnte wire (60 turns)

5. The turns ratio of the transformer on the "Major" electromagnet is unknown. I've started with a 1:2 ratio.

6. The insulated sleve that introduces 4 conductors for each electromagnet pair. It appears that not all of these wires are used.

7. The aluminum plates that mount the dovetailed electromagnets has some counterbored holes that are not used, suggesting these these assemblies were once used in a different engine case (the EMA3?)

8. I suspect that the "Minor" electromagnet is wired in series with the secondary of the "Major" transformer. Much like a HIB ballist to limit current after the arc is struck. The arc has to last about 8 milliseconds at the slowest speed. So far with the simulations I've done I need more inductance all around. This suggests that all of these devides on one mounting pad are connected in series. If this line of thinking is correct.

9. The EMA0 suggests that groups of three stator sets are wired in a "Delta" fashion.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 21, 2011, 10:05:23 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 22, 2011, 06:34:46 AM
Thank you.

Dear XS-NRG,

I'll be drawing up a schematic of the EMA4 after I get off vacation. Drop me a line at mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com and I'll be glad to send you a pdf copy of the same (or a .dwg file if you have AutoCAD). Also if there are any photos, drawings, reports, or additional wild speculations you need to assist in your line of research I'll be glad to send those along as well.

Best of Luck in solving any part of this lost mystery,

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 22, 2011, 07:16:20 AM
Dear XS-NRG,

Just a little:

1. The "Major" electromagnet is a transformer, not a straight inductor. One lead of the secondary connects directly to the laminated core, much like an automotive induction coil.

2. Both cores of the "Minor" electromagnet and "Major" Electromagnet are electricalloy connected to each other.

3. Each electromagnet is connected in series with its partner in the back. So front and back electromagnets are connected in series. This complicates the wiring of the "Major" electromagnet secondaries.

4. The "Minor" electromagnet is a straight inductor with an inductance around 0.807 mH using #19 AWG magnte wire (60 turns)

5. The turns ratio of the transformer on the "Major" electromagnet is unknown. I've started with a 1:2 ratio.

6. The insulated sleve that introduces 4 conductors for each electromagnet pair. It appears that not all of these wires are used.

7. The aluminum plates that mount the dovetailed electromagnets has some counterbored holes that are not used, suggesting these these assemblies were once used in a different engine case (the EMA3?)

8. I suspect that the "Minor" electromagnet is wired in series with the secondary of the "Major" transformer. Much like a HIB ballist to limit current after the arc is struck. The arc has to last about 8 milliseconds at the slowest speed. So far with the simulations I've done I need more inductance all around. This suggests that all of these devides on one mounting pad are connected in series. If this line of thinking is correct.

9. The EMA0 suggests that groups of three stator sets are wired in a "Delta" fashion.

Spokane1

Any chance the magnets passing would also be acting like a magneto spark gap to align the magnetic oxygen in the motor housing between the magnets. I.e., did Gray mix the Gray tube into the motor inductors themselves?

I think therein lies the "secret" to this mystery. There seems to be no other way to explain why there was so much air space (magnegas space) in the motor and why all that sealant on the end plates and parts to keep it there.

I would be looking for unusual levels of corrosion inside the motor when normally over time, something sealed up like that would display none.

I tried to teach Aaron about this a few years ago regarding the Gray tube but he pointed out to me out smart he was and what an idiot and I am. I'm sure at times that appears true, just not that time. Things are not always what they appear to be on the surface.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 22, 2011, 08:54:14 PM
Any chance the magnets passing would also be acting like a magneto spark gap to align the magnetic oxygen in the motor housing between the magnets. I.e., did Gray mix the Gray tube into the motor inductors themselves?

I think therein lies the "secret" to this mystery. There seems to be no other way to explain why there was so much air space (magnegas space) in the motor and why all that sealant on the end plates and parts to keep it there.

I would be looking for unusual levels of corrosion inside the motor when normally over time, something sealed up like that would display none.

I tried to teach Aaron about this a few years ago regarding the Gray tube but he pointed out to me out smart he was and what an idiot and I am. I'm sure at times that appears true, just not that time. Things are not always what they appear to be on the surface.

Dear Quarktoo,

No doubt there is something to explore concerning the impact of the magnetic field on air moluclules, but it is going to be a while before I can get to that level of detail. Peter Lindemann has just released a new book on that very subject, so it is something well worth looking into.

The sucessful EMA4 Free-Energy Engine had an outboard air blower that provided 1/2 psi of pressure to the internal engine case the the two chambers that held the various switching commutators. No doubt as lot of air was being moved through this machine.

Mr. Hackenberger maintained in one of his "engineering reports" that he thought the source of the anomalous energy was from the decomposition of the oxygen in the air. I have no history of any gasous chemistry analysis being done by any of Gray's research associates. This was one subject that was discussed by not studied.

But, you are correct on that corrosion issue. With that many arcs, even with the air flow, NO2 and nitric acid will eventually have an impact on the metal surfaces, especially any exposed aluminum parts. However, there is probably nothing that can't be mitigated with proper materials design.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 22, 2011, 09:38:59 PM
I do not think air or any other gas plays a role in Gray's ema system and i don't think there was a high vacuum.
I have done some research into ions/gas/vacuum/plasma etc..
I have build several vacuum tubes and plasmatron/pagd gas discharge devices. :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 23, 2011, 03:07:22 AM
I do not think air or any other gas plays a role in Gray's ema system and i don't think there was a high vacuum.
I have done some research into ions/gas/vacuum/plasma etc..
I have build several vacuum tubes and plasmatron/pagd gas discharge devices. :)

Shiny!

I don't think there was a high vacuum either but I think there is a gas in there. Could just be ozone at ambient pressure and 12% O2 air but seems like there has to be something.

Nice build XS-NRG. Does it do anything?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 23, 2011, 03:30:36 AM
Dear Quarktoo,

No doubt there is something to explore concerning the impact of the magnetic field on air moluclules, but it is going to be a while before I can get to that level of detail. Peter Lindemann has just released a new book on that very subject, so it is something well worth looking into.

The sucessful EMA4 Free-Energy Engine had an outboard air blower that provided 1/2 psi of pressure to the internal engine case the the two chambers that held the various switching commutators. No doubt as lot of air was being moved through this machine.

Mr. Hackenberger maintained in one of his "engineering reports" that he thought the source of the anomalous energy was from the decomposition of the oxygen in the air. I have no history of any gasous chemistry analysis being done by any of Gray's research associates. This was one subject that was discussed by not studied.

But, you are correct on that corrosion issue. With that many arcs, even with the air flow, NO2 and nitric acid will eventually have an impact on the metal surfaces, especially any exposed aluminum parts. However, there is probably nothing that can't be mitigated with proper materials design.

Spokane1

Hey thanks for the reply.

I must admit I don't know much about Gray's models (EMA4) but I have studied the photos of that youtube video owned by Francoure or something like that. Claimed he found it in texas. IS that the one you are referring to?

The othr question I would have and you probably can't verify it is are you sure it was a 1/2 PSI of pressure or vacuum?

Sure seems like Gray went to a lot of trouble to seal that motor housing with silicone. That aspect of the invention is about the only lead I see worth following after so many years of nothing.

I have a vacuum chamber that can pull close to a hard vacuum. I might have to put a transformer in there and do my own experiments. I never really thought about a vacuum transformer before but since a vacuum is all that is needed to produce x-ray, it makes me think that is somewhat interesting.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 23, 2011, 04:23:51 AM
@ Spokane1

OK So I boned up on the latest model thanks to some really clear photos someone posted online and the plot thickens. The more I learn about this, the less I know.

Your observation regarding the wire to the cores seems rather key don't you think? I just want to throw that out there and maybe someone could explain that?

The only place I have ever seen that is a microwave oven transformer. Is that to produce a unipolar pulse?

This new info. that you guys are bringing out is fascinating. The photo of children playing with a light bulb in water... This is not the electricity that PGE sells.

OK, I'll stop with my stupid gas in a casing suggestion.

Any ideas on that grounded core would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Herger on January 23, 2011, 04:43:29 AM
Spokane1

Do you know what happened to Al Francoure?  Last I heard he had a self-runner.  You may remember it, it was mostly wood and pivoted up and down.  I can't recall the patent he followed, Wesley I think.  Al also had a variable reluctance generator that he thought could go OU with some work.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 23, 2011, 05:02:39 AM
Spokane1

Do you know what happened to Al Francoure?  Last I heard he had a self-runner.  You may remember it, it was mostly wood and pivoted up and down.  I can't recall the patent he followed, Wesley I think.  Al also had a variable reluctance generator that he thought could go OU with some work.

Dearest Grumpy AKA Herger,

I get the impression you like me a lot since no matter where I go, there you are.  I can be at least as nasty as you or I can be as nice as you. I am what you make me. Let's start fresh? The alternative is too horrible to speak of.

I'll give you my latest goofy theory and we will see if you can play nice:

When an electrical arc occurs, a cavitation takes place and a sound particle called a phonon is created.

Next they say you can resonate an iron core at it's resonant frequency with a piezo and produce an electrical current through a coil.

Next when a iron core is magnetized with a coil, AB oscillations take place in the core.

And finally if a phonon was collected and delivered to the core to ring it like a bell at just the right time, maybe the AB oscillation could be larger?

I have another theory but I'm saving the other one just in case you still want to play the game.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 23, 2011, 05:14:36 AM
Spokane1,

If you have access to that motor could you determine if the wire that attaches to the core is copper, iron or silver? Maybe just use a magnet to see if it is FE core composite wire?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Herger on January 23, 2011, 06:27:35 AM
Dearest Grumpy AKA Herger,

I get the impression you like me a lot since no matter where I go, there you are.  I can be at least as nasty as you or I can be as nice as you. I am what you make me. Let's start fresh? The alternative is too horrible to speak of.

I'll give you my latest goofy theory and we will see if you can play nice:

When an electrical arc occurs, a cavitation takes place and a sound particle called a phonon is created.

Next they say you can resonate an iron core at it's resonant frequency with a piezo and produce an electrical current through a coil.

Next when a iron core is magnetized with a coil, AB oscillations take place in the core.

And finally if a phonon was collected and delivered to the core to ring it like a bell at just the right time, maybe the AB oscillation could be larger?

I have another theory but I'm saving the other one just in case you still want to play the game.

So, by "Grumpy" you mean someone that goes by that name?  I asked before, thinking that you meant that I was "grumpy", as in irritable, but you did not reply.  Well,  I don't know this "Grumpy".  You and he obviously have some sort of beef, so kindly leave me out of it.

Despite your claim that I follow you, I asked Spokane1 a question about Al Francoeur that does not concern you.  I do not know what your problem is, nor do I care.  There are enough of your posts on every forum to know that you have issues.  I choose not to be part of them.

As for your "theories".  I don't think too highly of "theories".  Everyone has them, and until proven, they are just thoughts.  What good are thoughts if they never materialize?  Thoughts tend to wander into a waking dreamland and this becomes addicting.  If you have a theory, I urge you to prove it, which takes hard work.  Most people seem to want to avoid that.

As for games, I am a busy person that outgrew most games a long time ago.  Find another player.


Spokane1,

I found some old stuff on Al:

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/wesley2.htm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/francoeu.htm

This sort of device does not garner a lot of interest today, but that could change if Al's self-runner is still running.


Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 23, 2011, 12:58:42 PM
So, by "Grumpy" you mean someone that goes by that name?  I asked before, thinking that you meant that I was "grumpy", as in irritable, but you did not reply.  Well,  I don't know this "Grumpy".  You and he obviously have some sort of beef, so kindly leave me out of it.

Despite your claim that I follow you, I asked Spokane1 a question about Al Francoeur that does not concern you.  I do not know what your problem is, nor do I care.  There are enough of your posts on every forum to know that you have issues.  I choose not to be part of them.

As for your "theories".  I don't think too highly of "theories".  Everyone has them, and until proven, they are just thoughts.  What good are thoughts if they never materialize?  Thoughts tend to wander into a waking dreamland and this becomes addicting.  If you have a theory, I urge you to prove it, which takes hard work.  Most people seem to want to avoid that.

As for games, I am a busy person that outgrew most games a long time ago.  Find another player.


Spokane1,

I found some old stuff on Al:

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/wesley2.htm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/francoeu.htm

This sort of device does not garner a lot of interest today, but that could change if Al's self-runner is still running.

You are "Grumpy" the one that puts things in "Brackets" and post alot of ? ? ? ? questionmarks and alot of links

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/wesley2.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/francoeu.htmhttp://www.linux-host.org/energy/wesley2.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/francoeu.htm

At the end of his posts thinking people click them..

The biggest fool on the planet.

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 23, 2011, 02:52:55 PM
I'll give you my latest goofy theory and we will see if you can play nice:

When an electrical arc occurs, a cavitation takes place and a sound particle called a phonon is created.

Next they say you can resonate an iron core at it's resonant frequency with a piezo and produce an electrical current through a coil.

Next when a iron core is magnetized with a coil, AB oscillations take place in the core.

And finally if a phonon was collected and delivered to the core to ring it like a bell at just the right time, maybe the AB oscillation could be larger?

I have another theory but I'm saving the other one just in case you still want to play the game.
that is NOT a theory... that is a hypothesis. and like all of the hypothesis you have presented here, this one has no experiment to back up your conclusions...  ::)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 23, 2011, 03:20:13 PM
that is NOT a theory... that is a hypothesis. and like all of the hypothesis you have presented here, this one has no experiment to back up your conclusions...  ::)

So it is not OK to ask questions and share ideas? No wonder people have left this site.

XS-NRG was right about the link. Do some whois research and you come up with Bell Canada and Markmonitor

You and Grumpy under his many usernames follow me from thread to thread harassing me online. Why? Because I actually do research and build things and you are here to suppress.

You try and get people to disclose so your "company" can patent and nullify our patents and then place us under a gag order. That info. came from my attorney.

So where are all your builds and proof out of your 1000's of posts? Same as Grumpy?

If you post photos online be sure to use a clean version of META stripper to clean the personal and gps info from the photo and post here using the Tor network.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 23, 2011, 03:31:32 PM
So it is not OK to ask questions and share ideas? No wonder people have left this site.
no, it's fine with me if people ask questions. that's still not a theory... furthermore, you phrase most of your posts as statements, not questions... ie:"When an electrical arc occurs, a cavitation takes place and a sound particle called a phonon is created." and finally, people have left this site because of trolls like you.

XS-NRG was right about the link. Do some whois research and you come up with Bell Canada and Markmonitor
irrelevant, i didn't reference the "links"...

You and Grumpy under his many usernames follow me from thread to thread harassing me online. Why? Because I actually do research and build things and you are here to suppress.
i see, so you are the only one allowed to post then... is that it? and where are these things you allegedly build? you have not shown any of them here... ::)

You try and get people to disclose so your "company" can patent and nullify our patents and then place us under a gag order. That info. came from my attorney.
i don't work for a "company", i am self employed. if you think i do work for some "company" perhaps you could provide some evidence???  ::)

So where are all your builds and proof out of your 1000's of posts? Same as Grumpy?
denied logical fallacy (ad hominem tu quo que) and furthermore, i am not the one spewing "theories" on any and every thread... that's you boo boo.  ::)

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 23, 2011, 04:04:36 PM
Wilby why are you here?
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Herger on January 23, 2011, 04:52:12 PM
Spokane1,

I found some old stuff on Al:

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/wesley2.htm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/francoeu.htm

This sort of device does not garner a lot of interest today, but that could change if Al's self-runner is still running.

Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 24, 2011, 05:09:03 AM
Spokane1,

If you have access to that motor could you determine if the wire that attaches to the core is copper, iron or silver? Maybe just use a magnet to see if it is FE core composite wire?

Dear quarktoo,

The Pulse Motors Al Francour has (3 of them) have electromagnets that have been rewound with #14 AWG standard copper magnet wire. This was done in 1980 by Mr. Nelson Schlaft.

Mr. Kenneth D. Hawkins of San Antonio, TX who provided the 1986 promotion video and told Norm Wooton where the surviving Gray Motors were claims that the wire used in the original Gray Motors (and I would assume the Free-Energy Engines) was iron wire. Generally iron wire a lot of times comes copper coated to avoid rust.

I have no idea why Marvin Cole would use iron, (if he did) but I'm sure that several ideas can be proposed.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 24, 2011, 05:26:29 AM
INTERESTING!

Thank you  :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 24, 2011, 05:45:07 AM
Hey thanks for the reply.

I must admit I don't know much about Gray's models (EMA4) but I have studied the photos of that youtube video owned by Francoure or something like that. Claimed he found it in Texas. IS that the one you are referring to?

The other question I would have and you probably can't verify it is are you sure it was a 1/2 PSI of pressure or vacuum?

Sure seems like Gray went to a lot of trouble to seal that motor housing with silicone. That aspect of the invention is about the only lead I see worth following after so many years of nothing.

I have a vacuum chamber that can pull close to a hard vacuum. I might have to put a transformer in there and do my own experiments. I never really thought about a vacuum transformer before but since a vacuum is all that is needed to produce x-ray, it makes me think that is somewhat interesting.

Dear quarktoo,

1. There were 15 (or so) machines made from 1967 to 1979. The first 7 were industrial Pulse Motors and not OU, these were generally number E1 to E5 with some stray designs in between. The true Free-Energy Engines started with the EMA1(1967) through the EMA7(1979). What Al has in his collection are all the retrofitted Pulse Motors made from circa 1961 to 1965. The retrofit process took place in 1980. These pulse motors were never OU before or after the retrofit.

2. I'm 90% sure it was 1/2 psi pressure. The outboard Air Blower used on the EMA4-E1 was a common motor component used on gasoline engines for a couple of years in the early 70's to meet emission standards by blowing fresh air into the exhaust port to reduce CO. Other solutions were quickly found and they disappeared from cars and light trucks.

3. The internal surface of the EMA4 was machined 0.250" Teflon, or so I'm told by GD. The Pulse Motor patent illustrations does a pretty good job of disclosing this construction feature. The GD photo of the EMA5 provides so much more detail of this inner sleeve. The first four Pulse Motors E1-E4 didn't have this feature. The cost of the detailed machining to make these sleeves made these engines expensive. I believe this is a vital component since my line of reasoning proposes that the case was one common plate of a large capacitor with the Teflon being the HV dielectric. The other 9 plates of the multi-capacitor were the aluminum bars that mounted the clusters of electromagnets.

4. There is no historical technical information - to date - that suggests that Gray used a vacuum in any part of the operation of this equipment. But, if it ever comes up I also am prepaired with a lot of high quality vacuum equipment. (It pays to go to those university auctions before eBay became popular)

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: quarktoo on January 24, 2011, 12:42:28 PM
Spokane1,

If you have access to that motor could you determine if the wire that attaches to the core is copper, iron or silver? Maybe just use a magnet to see if it is FE core composite wire?


Dear quarktoo,

The Pulse Motors Al Francour has (3 of them) have electromagnets that have been rewound with #14 AWG standard copper magnet wire. This was done in 1980 by Mr. Nelson Schlaft.

Mr. Kenneth D. Hawkins of San Antonio, TX who provided the 1986 promotion video and told Norm Wooton where the surviving Gray Motors were claims that the wire used in the original Gray Motors (and I would assume the Free-Energy Engines) was iron wire. Generally iron wire a lot of times comes copper coated to avoid rust.

I have no idea why Marvin Cole would use iron, (if he did) but I'm sure that several ideas can be proposed.

Spokane1

"Ideas can be proposed"? ???

Not here they can't! That would be a theory and you are only allowed to ask questions from someone that has experimentally backed up evidence according to the master clown Wilby who's only contribution to OU is thousands of posts being critical of others and a joule thief replication.

Interesting that I was able to predict iron wire being used in a motor with one of my "theories"? The copper is not to prevent rust, it is called composite wire and was used by Stan Meyer in his tube cell resonant charge choke. See fig 10-4 of his notes. (The part everyone else missed.)

Thanks for the info. Spokane1. I have to put some thought into that. I may still have my old Gray tube replication attempt around somewhere.

Yesterday I offered a theory and the unlicensed trolls came at me like a pack of spider monkeys. Hartman saved them by locking the thread.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10245.new;topicseen#new

The American Troll society delivered MASTER CLOWN Wilby and the other trolls a message yesterday, hopefully they heed it. Oh the horror! Message sent to the OUR troll HQ last night (Grumpy's post) was deleted in minutes - no sense of humor...

The Message:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericanTrollSociety#p/u/0/26od1wYprdE

ATS troll most wanted list:

http://americantrollsociety.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: XS-NRG on January 24, 2011, 02:51:35 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 24, 2011, 07:36:40 PM
I do not think air or any other gas plays a role in Gray's ema system and i don't think there was a high vacuum.
I have done some research into ions/gas/vacuum/plasma etc..
I have build several vacuum tubes and plasmatron/pagd gas discharge devices. :)

Dear XS-NRG

I agree with you on the high vacuum issue, there is no evidence that any high vacuum equipment was used.

On the air issue, I'm not so sure. There is something funky about how the arc was stretched across the dielectric. There is a lot of weird stuff going one in an air plasma. The big issue is electron avalanche that is greatly impacted by the ambient atmosphere. The anomalous charge build up in the dielectric block might be related to a massive collection of unpaired electrons implanted in the surface. - But who knows until we start stretching arcs across dielectric surfaces and look for charge build up.

Ken Shoulder's work was done in air - at least as far as I've read his reprots.

The air blower may have just been used to remove contaminated air after being exposed to the arcs.

Again Mr. Hackenberger thought it had something to do with an air/oxygen reaction. He was there and was able to look directly at working equipment. He was no dummy either, so I have to accept his direction for now.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 24, 2011, 08:06:07 PM
@ Spokane1

OK So I boned up on the latest model thanks to some really clear photos someone posted online and the plot thickens. The more I learn about this, the less I know.

Your observation regarding the wire to the cores seems rather key don't you think? I just want to throw that out there and maybe someone could explain that?

The only place I have ever seen that is a microwave oven transformer. Is that to produce a unipolar pulse?

This new info. that you guys are bringing out is fascinating. The photo of children playing with a light bulb in water... This is not the electricity that PGE sells.

OK, I'll stop with my stupid gas in a casing suggestion.

Any ideas on that grounded core would be appreciated.

Dear quarktoo,

1. The new photos of the E1 aka "The Brown Motor" is an old Pulse Motor built between 1961 and 1965. It never was a true Free Energy Engine. That technology didn't come along till 1967 or so.

2. The information on the Internet is confusing with out a score card (Timeline of device construction and retro-fits). It has only be recently that I have been able to sort it out as well, so don't feel bad. There was so little information available for years that nothing made any sense.

3. Yes, the wiring of the electromagnet secondary to the core is important. This is how the proposed arcs from stator to rotor were made. Fortunatly we had a photo from the GD collection that shows the connection very clearly.

4. I'm not sure of what your reference is to the microwave transformer is. I use microwave transformers as the stock material for the laminated transformer sheet metal. All the wire is removed and then I mill it with a verticle mill to get the right profile. The unipolar pulses were created by a custom transformer made by Malloray Electric Company.

5. The photo of the children are of GD'c kids when he was given one of the 2nd generation Electrostatic Generators to have for safe keeping. From what I can determine this design didn't work. It was some kind of blocking oscillator. I'm not sure what the light bulb in the water is suppose to show since the source is isolated and the wattage of the bulb is only 25 watts. Originaly this demo might have meant something, but not in this form.

6. The cores of the electromagnets appear not to have been grounded (if I'm following your question right) in the EMA4 Free-Energy Engine the cores of the "Major" and "Minor" electromagnets were connected together since thay are dovetailed into a common aluminum block with no insulation. At least that is how it appears to me.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Spokane1 on January 24, 2011, 08:34:37 PM
Spokane1,

I found some old stuff on Al:

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/wesley2.htm

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/francoeu.htm

This sort of device does not garner a lot of interest today, but that could change if Al's self-runner is still running.

Dear Herger,

The first link turned out to be a blank page for my machine.

The second link is from 2001 when Al was developing one of his reluctance motor inventions. This was a few years before he acquired the E.V. Gray Pulse Motors. I don't think that design turned out to be a self runner. But it sure is impressive to look at with the clear Plexiglas case and all the coils and caps inside of it.

However, the over all concept proved to be salable to a firm in Colorado that makes slow speed vertical windmills. Apparently Al's design allows for a substantial output without the need for a mechanical transmission. It seems that they were happy enough with the performance to handsomely compensate Al for his invention.  Al has about three novel generator/motor designs that he has created. So, his fascination with the Gray Pulse Motors is certainly justified.

Spokane1
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Herger on January 26, 2011, 04:34:00 AM
Dear Herger,

The first link turned out to be a blank page for my machine.

The second link is from 2001 when Al was developing one of his reluctance motor inventions. This was a few years before he acquired the E.V. Gray Pulse Motors. I don't think that design turned out to be a self runner. But it sure is impressive to look at with the clear Plexiglas case and all the coils and caps inside of it.

However, the over all concept proved to be salable to a firm in Colorado that makes slow speed vertical windmills. Apparently Al's design allows for a substantial output without the need for a mechanical transmission. It seems that they were happy enough with the performance to handsomely compensate Al for his invention.  Al has about three novel generator/motor designs that he has created. So, his fascination with the Gray Pulse Motors is certainly justified.

Spokane1

Thanks Spokane1.   Al has his mind right and doesn't let the naysayers stop him.
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on February 20, 2011, 03:17:15 PM
http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/e_v_gray_motor/
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: nat1971a on February 21, 2011, 01:46:14 AM
I recall edwin gray mentioning "more air" had something to do with it.
Tesla used a draft of hot air to quench the spark gap on his disruptive discharge coils.

I always thought that gray had either pumped more or less air into the CSET chamber and the earlier gray patent appears to pumping air into where the inside of the engine as previously discussed in this thread.

anyway something to test
Title: Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
Post by: Shanti on October 16, 2011, 11:31:29 PM
Ok, already quite some time since someone posted here. I just stumbled again upon this, as in the meantime I occupied myself very thoroughly with Viktor Schaubergers work.
And as I finally got an explanation, what the basic principle behind his machines was, I immediately discovered, that quite some other famous OU-machines actually are also perfectly easily explainable by this principle (e.g. the SEG). And the funny thing is, there's not even a "new physics" needed to explain it.

And as I thought again about it, I asked myself if the Gray-Motor maybe also works like that. First I dismissed that, as there really doesn't seem to be any functional connection, but as you say, that it seems to have been very important that a lot of air is blown through the motor and that it only started to work, when he completely made the inner part of Teflon, it started to smell like the same principle.

@Spokane: Thanks again for your profound knowledge about the matter. Is the book you mentioned in the meantime available?

If I look at the matter I get the following impression.
They wanted to make a very efficient motor. Not only efficient in relation to electric efficiency, but also to the size of the motor. The funny thing is, I also asked myself once how one could make a Motor most effective. The principle is this. The basic principle of a motor is always to have 2 Magnets (both can be electromagnets, but not necessarily) which either attract or repel each other. This generates a radial force, which becomes the torque of the motor. Now it is like that: The force of the magnets is the strongest, the nearer the magnets are to each other.  Now you can either already switch your stator magnet on, when your rotor magnet is still far away. But unfortunately most of the time you will get only a small force for the needed amperage. Only if the magnets are very near to each other, the force becomes very strong. This is why one usually has many many poles, if you want to have motors with a high torque. But then you have the problem, that you can't go high with the rpm, as the inductances won't allow this. Here comes the voltage in the game. The higher the voltage, the faster you can switch the magnetic fields.

So I asked myself, how can one make a motor, which yields a lot of torque, still goes to high speeds but remains quite small for the power. I only saw one solution, a high voltage impulse motor.The idea is, to only switch the magnets for a short time, when they are very near to each other (works best, if the magnets are not oriented 90° but with an angle). Like that, you can get most power out of the motor for the size, and you also get a lot of torque. For in this short moment you can drive with a lot of amps and a lot of amperage (at exactly the position where the attracting/opposing forces of the magnets will be strongest). This will surely heat your coils quite fast. But as after this impulse the coil doesn't get current again for quite some time, it can cool down again. So that in the mean it dissipates the same amount of heat, as with the conventional driving scheme. As the impulse are only quite short, you can still go quite high with the RPM.
The additional advantage is, that you also get the electrostatic forces to work for you (as in an electrostatic motor), if the voltage is high. But as the voltages were not that high, and the calculated involved electrostatic forces are quite small, I don't think that this yielded much improvement.
What are the main disadvantages of this scheme? It is very difficult to switch HV for short Impulses with high currents, and the motor must be able to withstand the voltage.

IMHO by far the easiest way to make these Impulses is to use two electromagnets and use them together in an oscillator. Simply said, similar to a Tesla coil. But with the secondary split in two halves, to get two separate electromagnets. If the coils do exactly have the right distance the inductance gets so that the oscillator goes into resonance and like that it automatically increases the current and voltage in the optimal position.

When I look at the "popping demo" pic (http://universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray%20magnet%20popping%20demo.html (http://universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray%20magnet%20popping%20demo.html)) it is kind of obvious that on the table is an air-core transformer (like a tesla coil is). So maybe they had this idea and started to do the first few motors based upon this idea. Later they modified the motor so (with the Teflon inside) that suddenly another effect started to kick in. IMHO this effect doesn't directly have anything to do with actual basic motor principle or it's driving circuitry, but more with the design (especially the material) of the motor itself. So IMHO I don't think it has anything to do at all with the arc or the CSET.
But this is just my current opinion, based on my research on Schauberger. It doesn't have to be correct in any way.
But maybe someone gets inspired. For all others: I'm very sorry to have wasted your time in reading this. Really.

BTW:
If this Hyptheses is correct, then the CSETs do not produce the OU effect. Then it would really make sense, that the CSETs were actually really electron multipliers, as in Farnsworth's patents. As these would be IMHO the best and most efficient way, to pulse these motors. Maybe Cole had at some point the idea to optimize the switching by using them. Just an idea...

Edit:
On the second look. With the CSETs it would be explainable how you can do the motor without having to have primary and secondary on the same coil in the motor. But without them, it would be needed, that every motor coil would need to be made like a transformer. As this wasn't the case, this hypotheses is obviously flawed. Maybe he used the coils of the emagnets as additional coils in the secondary circuit. But then, there should have been some primary/secondary-transformer somewhere. Or he directly switched the HV, without any transformer action, but without proper switching equipment, this would have been quite difficult....
Ok, was just a guess. Maybe not a too good one  ;D Sorry!!!

But I would really be interested how that book is going!