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Author Topic: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage  (Read 77229 times)

Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2010, 03:09:09 AM »
oil filled transformers.
I'm inclined to agree that they're transformers.  I notice two terminals of each one are shorted, which is consistent with pulse transformers.

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2010, 03:09:09 AM »

Offline wattsup

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2010, 03:20:15 AM »
Yes those are high precision resistors. I have several of those on hand.

In the image Location.JPG you can see two of those circuit boards and right behind them is what seems to be 6 solenoid driven high current contacts and you can see they are paralleled 2 by 2. This indicates that if these solenoids were used for the drive coils, the pulse frequency was not that high at all or he was using them to discharge those three large capacitors or he was diverting some energy out of the system.

Those three large capacitors in CoilsorCaps.JPG look like dual caps. Two caps per box and they all seem to be paralleled together to provide one hell of a punch.

Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2010, 06:50:04 PM »
Yes those are high precision resistors. I have several of those on hand.

In the image Location.JPG you can see two of those circuit boards and right behind them is what seems to be 6 solenoid driven high current contacts and you can see they are paralleled 2 by 2. This indicates that if these solenoids were used for the drive coils, the pulse frequency was not that high at all or he was using them to discharge those three large capacitors or he was diverting some energy out of the system.

Those three large capacitors in CoilsorCaps.JPG look like dual caps. Two caps per box and they all seem to be paralleled together to provide one hell of a punch.
One of the wires from the solenoids goes to the Varacter, and the others go down to the external plugs by the lower capacitor bank which has cross connecting bus bars.  The two anode wires to the Ignitrons seem to come from this bank.  It looks like the string of square white components has the first wire on the back side coming from the Varacter.

I haven't done much reading on Ignitrons in the past but now that I've checked I see the top connection is the anode.  Here's a link to the pdf on these units:

http://www.scottbecker.net/tube/sheets/142/g/GL7171.pdf

There's something highly unconventional about the way these are wired up.  The cathode is the stainless steel jacket but the two wires from the square white components, one to the jacket and one to the trigger, are shorted together with a small jumper.  And I can't see any trigger wires to the set with the white anode cable.

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2010, 06:50:04 PM »
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Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2010, 03:37:19 AM »
I'm thinking those external plugs are where the CSET's plug in.  With Gray's earlier motor the Conversion Tubes were visible on the shelf next to the capacitors, until the motor was shown running.  At that point the Tubes' wires were extended and the Tubes were moved out of sight.

One thing I noticed about that gray box at the lower right with the red wires is that it had an extension cord plugged into the wall.  This may be why that motor didn't attract any Investor interest.  That and the fact that it only produced two Hp.

If the motor in the current video did use the Conversion Tubes the Ignitrons were only the "one way current" devices, rather than a substitution for the Tubes.  So studying the Ignitron wiring doesn't put us any closer to understanding the CSET operation.

Offline XS-NRG

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2010, 10:20:23 PM »
from what i can see it is wired correctly so i dunno why you think it's wired in a weird way..
By the way they are mercury rectifiers.
Once the mercury arc is there the tube will conduct untill you interrupt the current then the arc falls off and you have to "Ignite" them again with the third electrode that's in the mercury drop at the bottom.

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2010, 10:20:23 PM »
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Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2010, 04:40:40 AM »
from what i can see it is wired correctly so i dunno why you think it's wired in a weird way..
By the way they are mercury rectifiers.
Once the mercury arc is there the tube will conduct untill you interrupt the current then the arc falls off and you have to "Ignite" them again with the third electrode that's in the mercury drop at the bottom.
You're probably right that that's how they're normally wired.  I'm just having difficulty seeing how two wires which are shorted together at the origin can spark, producing the mercury vapor. 

And I agree with your assessment of the low pulse rate.  Those solenoids can't work too fast, especially if there's a long throw when breaking a HV circuit.  The motor looks like it's set up to charge an external battery bank, so it wouldn't have to fire with every coil alignment.

Offline XS-NRG

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2010, 05:09:49 PM »
they are not shorted they are placed in parallel.
he probably first create a cheap ass high voltage spark and then ignites the ignitrons to switch in the amps, and that's probably when strange things start to happen and it is also how lightning works.


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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2010, 05:09:49 PM »
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Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2010, 12:09:34 AM »
they are not shorted they are placed in parallel.
he probably first create a cheap ass high voltage spark and then ignites the ignitrons to switch in the amps, and that's probably when strange things start to happen and it is also how lightning works.

The high voltage spark is probably in the external Conversion Tube, then the amps kick in.  I'm wondering if these Ignitrons all switch at the same instant.

Offline XS-NRG

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2010, 12:39:40 AM »
they don't have to switch at the same instant if he uses 3 CSET's and i believe he did.
I agree the spark is in the CSET but below not inside the conversion grids.

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2010, 12:39:40 AM »
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Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2010, 02:50:26 AM »
they don't have to switch at the same instant if he uses 3 CSET's and i believe he did.
I agree the spark is in the CSET but below not inside the conversion grids.
I also believe the spark in the CSET is not inside the grids.

And I've been checking on pulse circuits and I found one that has a resistor across the output of the ignition transformer.  Here's the circuit, although it shows SCR's.  And another view of Gray's Ignitrons shows what looks like a resistor without a sleeve, on the top transformer.

Offline XS-NRG

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2010, 07:21:00 PM »
these are regular diodes probably 1N4007 and they are used to short the inductive kickback from the transformer primary coil.
as you can see he used two in series and since 1 diode is rated at about 1Kv you can easy see that diode string has two so it would be rated at 2Kv.  :)

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2010, 07:21:00 PM »
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Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2010, 08:45:10 PM »
these are regular diodes probably 1N4007 and they are used to short the inductive kickback from the transformer primary coil.
as you can see he used two in series and since 1 diode is rated at about 1Kv you can easy see that diode string has two so it would be rated at 2Kv.  :)
Sounds good enough to me.  And 2kV is well within the range of the trigger voltage.

Here's the complete frame, showing that there's also another bus bar along the bottom of the Ignitrons.  Looking at your second picture, there's only one lead going to the cathode but each trigger transformer has a red wire.  This pretty much confirms the Ignitrons are cascaded since it would take some small amount of time for the pulse to conduct along the loops between the transformers on the output side.  And the trigger pulse itself is in the range of 5 micro seconds.

Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2010, 05:11:02 PM »
While I was looking through files with Ignitron switches I found an article about blasting concrete and rocks with a spark from a capacitor bank.   Here's the link if anyone is interested in demolition:

http://sri.auburn.edu/papers/2008/aiaa_2008_5710_532.pdf

This article mentioned something called a Bernardes Merryman circuit for preventing voltage reversals, something which uses two double capacitors.  This kind of capacitor is shown with the EMA-6 motor in message #18, and there's also some double caps visible on the left in the picture from the current video, in message #17.

The article also says this circuit can be used for energy recovery.

Offline XS-NRG

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2010, 12:59:55 AM »
The power supply is made up of four 12 volt battery's
When you look at the video you might think these battery's are wired in series giving a total voltage of 48 Volts.

This is not the case.
These battery's are wired in a center tap configuration.
So 2 x 24 Volts or simply 24-0-24

I have also reconstructed a circuit board aswell as some of the wiring on the drive circuit.
The diode string is made up of 6 diodes so would be rated about 6000 Volts.
I'm still working on the connections to the ignitor terminals and the high voltage inverter.  :)

Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2010, 05:31:32 AM »
The power supply is made up of four 12 volt battery's
When you look at the video you might think these battery's are wired in series giving a total voltage of 48 Volts.

This is not the case.
These battery's are wired in a center tap configuration.
So 2 x 24 Volts or simply 24-0-24

I have also reconstructed a circuit board aswell as some of the wiring on the drive circuit.
The diode string is made up of 6 diodes so would be rated about 6000 Volts.
I'm still working on the connections to the ignitor terminals and the high voltage inverter.  :)
You did a lot of good work here.  Do you think one set of two batteries is for recovery?

I'm not sure if your circuit for the boards is quite there yet.  Looking at the back, the wires dropping straight down hit every other prong.  And there's also a horizontal cross wire.

The #7 wire with the trigger transformers goes to the yellow stay-con under the screw on the brass, by his palm.  If only the other wires were as easy to spot.  :)

 

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