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Author Topic: Do electrons repel each other?  (Read 10909 times)

stevensrd1

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Do electrons repel each other?
« on: September 27, 2010, 12:45:09 AM »
I read electrons repel each other, its something most anyone who understands electricity or know about electronics would agree upon, as its what they are taught. So if electrons repel each other, I have a question or two. Lets say you were making a simple circuit. Lets say it was just a light and a battery and of course the wires to connect the battery to the light. OK lets say I have not connected the positive wire to the bulb, but that I have connected the negative wire only. At that exact moment that I connect the negative wire. Do electrons from the negative terminal of the battery immediately go into that wire?? If we have negative electrons already on the negative terminal of a battery,,and if electrons repel each other and want to get as far apart from each other as they can,,then it seems like at the moment just the negative wire was connected,,that electrons would go into that wire as they repel and want to get away from each other,,so what do you think,,do electrons repel? Will they repel out of the negative terminal of a battery into anything they can,,as in any other metal,,seeing that they want to repel?? What do you think?

fritznien

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2010, 01:00:22 AM »
yes.
when you apply a voltage to a single wire you get a small currant for a short time.
even a six inch piece of wire has some capacitance.
fritznien

stevensrd1

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2010, 01:06:23 AM »
So your saying just by connecting only the negative terminal of the battery to a wire,leaving the positive terminal of the battery unconnected,that electrons did flow into that wire,,regardless of how many,,or when the wire became full of them that electrons then stopped flowing into it,,you are saying that electrons did flow into the wire??  Opinions Anyone?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 02:36:46 AM by stevensrd1 »

stevensrd1

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2010, 12:52:56 PM »
The reason I ask is because I hear two conflicting ideas. The first is that electrons flow in a closed loop circuit. The second is that electrons repel each other. But I do not hear that electrons only repel each other in a closed loop circuit. So I am confused. My question was if electrons repel each other, then if a wire is hooked to the negative terminal of a battery. Then will the electrons in the negative terminal repel each other and go into the wire. Even if the positive terminal of the battery is not connected to anything. This is not about will it power anything this way, its about will the electrons repel each other into the wire connected only to the negative terminal of the battery, even if nothing connects to the positive terminal of the battery ???

mscoffman

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2010, 05:50:39 PM »
@stevensrd1,

I was thinking about this question relative to "electron gas"
and part b I was thinking about how to inform Rosemary's
understanding of electrical circuits.

---

Electrons repel other electrons - Yes. Electrons are also fairly
light weight, low mass particles. - Yes

But electrons have another behavior relative to each other and
that is; if the electron's path is curved, other electrons will curve
also along with it...this is known as a magnetic field. So I think the
magnetic interaction is responsible for electrons tendency to form
currents. After all, a circut is a loop. Electrons curved path is
mathematically defined in that it has a calculus derivative.

---

You have got to understand the Particle-Wave Duality of physics
and statistical nature of physics to understand an electrical circuit.
In other words an electron is actally four different things simultaneously.
And the uneducated mind can't handle it. An electron is particle,
when you are measuring amperage, it is fermion when you
measuring voltage, and it has a statistical representation when
you are dealing with static electricity and it's wave when it's doing
columbic chemical bonding...but in reality it's all four of these things
simultaneously. So electrons are particles when they flow into a wire
but as soon as one is in it begins to change the statistical fermion sea
of electrons in a wire and a static electric charge is created that sucks
in or repels other electrons, which is really a statistical entity. So what
happens is that our analogical model of how we think about an electron
is flawed, and our basic model can only be used so far before it starts
to give erroneous answers. This is why physicists have long since gone
to blackboard, using mathematics to describe behavior while the rest of
us can only bicker about what is going on using flawed oversimplified
mental models. So physicsits do really understand what is going in
electron current flow.

:S:MarkSCoffman

stevensrd1

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 06:14:35 AM »
The reason I wondered if electrons repel, or would into a wire connected to a negative terminal of a battery, without the positive terminal connected, is because to prove they do repel I thought of a simple experiment to test this, but the experiment failed. I took three batteries, on a table side by side, the middle battery was fully drained, the other two were fully charged. then I connected the negative of the middle battery to the negative of the battery on the right. Thinking the negative on the right would push or repel electrons into the negative of the middle battery, since it has extra electrons. Then I connected the positive of the middle battery to the positive of the battery on the left thinking the battery on the left would pull electrons from the middle battery, since positive wants electrons. But the middle battery did not recharge. So it seemed to me these electrons can not flow,,or be pulled or repelled.
At least not in this fashion, but if the electrons in a negative terminal go down a wire even if the positive is not hooked up,as in they repel each other into the wire, as to my question in the first article in this topic,,then in the experiment above the middle battery should have recharged.

fritznien

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 07:50:02 AM »
no it should not, you need a lot of currant to charge a battery.
the currant into a wire is small,picco amps and short fractions of a micro second.
also you need more than normal batery voltage to charge.
your test is just not senitive enough.
fritznien

stevensrd1

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 10:10:25 AM »
Well you may be right on one part,,my test were not sensitive enough, however as to voltage, I think you are incorrect, its fairly easy to recharge a battery with a battery. Its been done many times with something as simple as a joule thief, look up joule thief recharger on youtube videos, furthermore I have did it other ways, Ill reference my topic in another section of this forum here, http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9736.msg256747#msg256747 However I dont think it was an absolute total recharge as in a type of unity but perhaps close. Thanks again for your input, I do agree with my test on this experiment was not sensitive enough. I have no idea how to simplify further.

angryScientist

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Re: Do electrons repel each other?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2010, 11:33:15 AM »
I believe all the above responses are correct. A tiny amount of electrons will flow into the battery. The amount is so minuscule that it wont be noticed though. Remember you have hundreds of volts on your body right now. In fact it could be thousands. A static electricity spark of 1/4 inch is ten thousand volts of potential present that you never noticed. 1.5 volts is practically no noticeable difference in potential when speaking of static electricity.

The problem is difference in potential. In the battery your trying to charge, after touching your charged batteries to it, the potential on the positive and negative terminals will (relatively) immediately be the same as they were before. Unless you continually remove electrons from the positive terminal there will be no desire for ions to leave the cathode and flow through the electrolyte to the anode and combine with the oxides there. It reaches equilibrium almost immediately.

Now if you have one terminal of your dead battery touching one terminal of your charged battery and could take a small piece of metal and move it back and forth at an inconceivably fast rate between the two free terminals it would charge the dead battery. The small piece of metal would act as a capacitor and moving it back and forth would essentially act as a charge carrier. Then again, it would be way easier to just use a wire for the charge carrier.

As a side note; I believe electrons repel each other all the time unless they are moving together. In that case the magnetic field generated by each would cause them to be pulled together. Evidence of that would be an arc or bolt, where all the electrons move in a tight little stream or filament.