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Author Topic: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!  (Read 33491 times)

Offline stevensrd1

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I was wondering if electrons can flow in opposite directions along the same wire, and it seems to me they can. See my schematic to further understand, If you make the center wire that connects both motors to each battery separate, and watch the motor speed of each motor separately, then reconnect them so that the middle wire is only a single wire such as in the schematic, you will notice no speed change either way in the motors showing each motor is only being powered by a single battery, and that the electrons are taking the path of least resistance . And that also shows in the middle wire on the schematic connecting to both motors we have opposite electron flow along the same wire at the same time!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 11:58:57 AM by stevensrd1 »

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Offline IotaYodi

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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2010, 08:22:53 AM »
I was wondering if electrons can flow in opposite directions along the same wire, ...

Along the common wire there is no potential difference thus there is no current.
Remove this wire and you will understand what is going on: the current flows along the external circuit only.



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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2010, 08:22:53 AM »
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Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2010, 11:46:38 AM »
If I remove the middle wire that goes up and down, in the center, there is a change in motor speed, a very noticeable change, thus showing that there is flow in the middle wire, the electron path follows the path drawn, if it did not follow the path drawn and if the middle wire going up and down where electrons flow in both directions had no flow, there would be no change in any motor speed if it was removed. It would be the same as if it did nothing. The electrons are taking the path of least resistance, as drawn,,and that shows that electrons can flow in opposite directions along the same wire at the same time.

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2010, 02:36:05 PM »
Along the common wire there is no potential difference thus there is no current.
Remove this wire and you will understand what is going on: the current flows along the external circuit only.

There is no net current in the common wire, but it is a way for charges to find a quicker, less resistive path to the back end of a battery.

If you consider that each individual charge effectively traces its own electric circuit, you will find the circuit presented is really a summation of innumerable electrical circuits overlapping each other - as many circuits as there are electrons in there. If you treat it that way, each electron moving through that common wire certainly undergoes a voltage drop. Now not all the electrons will move through that common wire. After all, electrons can and do gain and lose energy by transferring energy between themselves, allowing a bit of them to go through the longer path that includes both motors (at the top of the diagram).

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2010, 02:36:05 PM »
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Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2010, 02:41:22 PM »
the common or middle wire is the path of least resistance,,electrons always take the path of least resistance, the shortest distance to ground, for each battery the path of least resistance is the middle or common wire. Its just what they teach when you learn about electronics and electron flow, is it not lol.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2010, 02:52:32 PM »
Try looking at it this way: it's a standard bipolar or dual power supply. The middle wire is GND or common. Many op-amp circuits require dual supplies, as does the power amplifier in your stereo.

This is not strange, it just may look that way. See the link below of a dual supply from the mains. It's the same thing essentially.

Dual supply diagram

.99

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2010, 02:52:32 PM »
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Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 03:02:25 PM »
Yes I see what you are saying, but this is different. I still think I am correct, its what is taught, unless what is taught is incorrect. It is taught electrons always take the path of least resistance, which for both batteries would be the center wire. There is electron flow there, if you remove it there is motor speed change, if the wire had no flow there would be no change in motor speed if it was removed. Each motor spins at the speed it would if it was a separate circuit with only one motor and one battery. Neither motor is spinning faster as it would if it was a separate circuit with one motor and two batteries in series powering it, as that would increase the speed of a motor. So this explains it all I think. I dont think what they teach is incorrect in this respect, and they do teach electron flow takes the path of least resistance, which is the middle wire for each battery, after going through a motor. Now if we remove the middle wire,,then and only then the electrons only have one path to follow,,that would be through both batteries, as that would then be the path of least resistance, and that would speed one motor up as it would then be powered by the two batteries in series.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 06:13:54 PM »
Simplifiying the loads using resistors and redrawing the circuit can help understand what happens in two different scenarios. A current sense resistor (CSR1) of 0.01Ohm is added to probe actual current in the conductor in question.

The gnd_path_balanced.gif illustrates your circuit if both motors represent loads that are identical. Each load has 1A of electron flow. In this case the voltage probe will measure 0V and therefore no net electron flow in CSR1. This conductor can be removed with no effect to the current in each load.

The gnd_path_unbalanced.gif illustrates your circuit with one motor being half the resistance (double the load) than the other. In this case the voltage probe will measure about -77mV indicating a net electron flow of about 770mA. You should notice that the current through R2 is the sum of the currents through R1 and CSR1. This holds for all cases.

Familiarize yourself with Kirchoff's Current Law here:

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/mastascu/elessonshtml/Basic/Basic4Ki.html

.99

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 06:13:54 PM »
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Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 06:59:36 PM »
So your saying the path of least resistance is incorrect? Then why do they teach it, why do they say it like its a law that electrons take the path of least resistance, Im not sure I understand why they would teach something that is incorrect, when its obvious in my schematic what is the path of least resistance, I still dont buy it, look at the next schematic I will post.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 08:14:57 PM by stevensrd1 »

Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 08:19:46 PM »
See if the wire showing electron flow in both directions was not there, as in we remove the wire from point A and point B then all three batteries combined as an external path is not enough power to run the led and the motor. However with the wire from A and B in place the motor runs at the speed that one battery would give it and the leds brightness is the brightness of two batteries. So to me it still seems we have electron flow going in both directions at the same time on the same wire, from point A and point B. Electrons always take the path of least resistance, its the taught law. And even if this is incorrect, if electrons take all paths, and not the path of least resistance, then we still have electron flow along the same wire at the same time, going in opposite directions, as all paths taken would mean this.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 08:44:06 PM by stevensrd1 »

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 08:19:46 PM »
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Offline Bulbz

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 08:32:13 PM »
I will try to make this as simple as I can.

When you connect to the center of the two batteries, that junction becomes 0-Volts, AKA ground or earth, in respect to the other two poles, the far left pole becomes -1.5V and the far right +1.5V. You should also notice, if you have connected both motors correctly, that the two motors spin in different directions (I think but I may be wrong), this is because the polarity at one end is mirror image to the other. You should also notice that each motor is only receiving 1.5-Volts.

Disconnect the vertical center green wire, then both motors should spin in the same direction, this is because now the far right positive end is 3-Volts, in respect to the far left negative. With that wire disconnected, one motor will speed up if the other one is labored or stalled, very handy for a differential effect in a model car or robot.

That kind of circuit is simply a voltage splitter, very handy for reversible speed control circuits.


Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 09:41:26 PM »
Thank you all very much,,I will certainly put forward some thought into this.

Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2010, 12:35:30 AM »
hm
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 08:01:47 AM by stevensrd1 »

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Can electrons flow in opposite directions on the same wire, see schematic!
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2010, 08:52:22 AM »
If I remove the middle wire that goes up and down, in the center, there is a change in motor speed, a very noticeable change,
...

Either your batteries or your motors are not perfectly identical or their rotation are not a synchronized. In this last case, there is probably an AC current in the common wire (check the current with an oscilloscope)

The electrons flow because they are submitted to a force F=q.E where E in the electric field in the wire. The direction of the force is the same for all electrons and all electrons are identical thus there is no crossed flux of electrons.


 

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