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Author Topic: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR  (Read 291534 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #285 on: June 29, 2012, 06:59:39 AM »
Ive been doing some simple tests and messing with this idea in sim

Something that I find interesting. When we disconnect a current from a coil, we get a spike. These spikes are powerful but short lived. As any experienced tech or electrical engineer will tell you, there is no more energy in the spike that what was input to make the spike.
During that short period of time when the spike occurs, that spike has the ability of penetration of sorts. Like, almost no matter the load that the spike is applied to, that spike is evident with a scope.  For example, if the input were 12v and the coil produced 90v during the collapse, but in a 10ohm load, the 90v would be reduced but still a spike that is visible. Lets say across the 10ohm load we have 36v. Not real numbers, just a general operation chart. ;]

If we have a dc to dc power supply, that converted 12v to 36v and applied that 36v to the 10ohm load, we would have roughly over 130w being consumed.

I was experimenting in using a 1to1 transformer with ac applied to the primary at 40hz and shorting the secondary at 4khz throughout the ac cycle.

I tried some additional caps and coils also in different ways and there are things that need to be tried on the bench.

Im getting waveforms that are spiky on input and output. Im finding that if I put an inductor in series with the secondary, the input goes from just producing output, to recieving input. Not that the power companies would want us doing that.  ;)

So the output and the input spikes are filling in the 40hz wave trace to look solid, 100 spikes per cycle wave. 

So im getting 2 to 5 times, depending on adjustments and such out into the load compared to input, AND the input is getting some back.

So it appears that if we have many shortings during the input cycle, along with additional inductors and caps, that there is more out than in with AC charge back.

I have a few versions of the circuit on sim before I build it. Ill post a couple tomorrow with pics of the circuit and scope shots showing power dissipation input and out. Even expanding the waveforms, it looks good.

The idea is, with so many shortings the spikes seem to take over, creating larger solid looking waveforms as compared to not shorting.

Im a bit amazed. But it is still sim and has to be tried.

I was messing with filtering the 4khz out of the output, and we have a virtually cleaned up output, but more than without shorting. I think this is something they are dealing with in the Kapanadze thread also. Makes a lot of sense.  like I said, those spikes have oomph. And it seems enough to hold up that larger waveform into a load, especially when the spikes are very close together, happening very often. ;]

Either way, im taking the shorting more seriously at this time. ;]

Mags

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #285 on: June 29, 2012, 06:59:39 AM »

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #286 on: June 29, 2012, 09:50:12 AM »
Hi Magluvin.
I like your approach.
My shorting module is ready for testing and I've been thinking along those same lines using a transformer.
For my first tests I want to do the shorting of a secondary while primary is being driven in a state of resonance.
I've got a quite good kill-a-watt meter to measure power consumption with phase angle measurement so
we will see if the shorting is reflecting back to the source...
There is a pretty big 300VA toroid waiting for this my meter shows 1W consumption with added caps at primary (reduced from 3W idling without any caps)
The two identical 55V secondaries will be connected in parallel for quicker response in building a field while being shorted.
 
kEhYo

Offline konehead

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #287 on: June 29, 2012, 07:43:42 PM »
Hi Magluvin and Kehyo
I asked Ismael if he creates the rings with an inital short at the peak, then when the ringing starts, and he tehn shorts the peaks of the rings themselves... he laughed and said "thats it"..
but making the shorting "non-refelective to source" is mandatory otherwise eveytime you make power, also  more power is required to make it so "no gain" happens
usually ringing like you see created by a spark-gap or a coil shorted momentarily very quick in a switched-short will decay-out in the voltage peaks of the ringing if looking with scope, but when you short at the "peaks of the rings" too,  the power going into caps goes up exponential-fashion (explosiong of voltage sort of)...if cap fills to 100V and the ring peaks decay down to 95V or bleow, and you still have lots of ringing, that cap is not going to fill speck more in voltage no matter how may times it is pulsed below 100V so in a single-shot short event it is only the first couple rings that boost the voltage up in cap, but in multi-short event you can get it to go up and up and up in voltage...
making system non-reflective to source ("lug free") is divided into two events; where the lug will happen - 1)the filling up of the capacitors, and 2)the knocking of capacitors into load...
putting caps into load without lugging system is pretty "easy" really - use the diode-plug or two stage circuit where caps disconnect from source (coils) during the dicsharge to load....this is pretty much  mandatory in coil-shorting stuff to be doing - you cannot throw a resistance acorss those caps when coils get shorted during the filling-up of them -  it will snuff everything out-  that resistance..
to make filling of caps lug-free, the caps size is important to experiment with, as way too big of cap uf value will have lots of resistance "in itself" so the resistance of cap can snuff out the ringing of the coil short too...
what I have found is ultra-important is the pulsewidth of the coil short and like I was saying a few pages back tha I found through expeimenting alot, is that if for an example you are working with 60hz sinewave, the coil-short at peak needs to be under .5 millisecond, and make sure it is at peak too, then in this case the rotor of generator (what I was testing ) will not slow down a single rpm while the caps fill up  - also I found that with wider pulse width, that does slow rotor a bit, (lenz lugging) the cap doesnt fill any faster than with that below .5ms pulse so that is a good thing.... anyways good luck in the experiments...
I guess jsut want to say again; time those multiple shorts per peak period to occur at the peaks of the ringing is the trick then its unbeleivable power rgoing into those caps and dont apply load to caps that have filled up until you disconnect caps from coils at same time...
I have been using a FWBR to rectfy the short-rining into DC caps, I want to experiment next wtih single diodes, going into two "alternating" DC cap banks so that I can do also the altenraing-DC-cap discharge diode-plug output with it....I'll let you know what happens with this - also I have been using "bidiretionally" hooked-up mosfets that will switch AC, but if doing single diode approach, maybe I can get by with only single mosfets to do the short, maybe PNP on pos phase NPN on neg phase not sure yet how its going to work but on paper it should...
 
   
 

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #287 on: June 29, 2012, 07:43:42 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #288 on: June 30, 2012, 01:48:06 AM »
Here is my initial example. Im working on tuning this one as it is just set at some simple values for components.

The input is 40hz 20v ac

The transformer is a 1to1 10mh

The switch is an analog switch set for .005ohms. Hey, what da heck. ;]  Simple.

The control input for the switch is set at 4khz square 50% duty cycle

The inductor and cap added is what made it all happen as nice as it looks. With just one or the other, output suffered. 10 mh and 10uf    And 99ohm load resistor.

With the addition of the inductor and cap, we get power being sent back to the input. bout 260w peak. Peaks?  Yea, but it is all peaks here. Dense peaks. ;]

Im working on tuning and a couple other versions. I just wanted to put this out there to show it in basic form.  Also the additional cap and inductor seems necessary for it to work by increasing the output as compared to without the LC, and providing power back to the source. 

The continuous shorting seems to not be much of a problem, and it is simpler. ;]

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #289 on: June 30, 2012, 02:15:32 AM »
Here is the same circuit with a 10ohm load instead of 99ohm. Notice the difference in input and output compared to my previous post.   ;) ;D

Mags

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #289 on: June 30, 2012, 02:15:32 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #290 on: June 30, 2012, 02:57:46 AM »
Mags:

Can you explain in some more detail what we are looking at?   They appear to be power waveforms?  Is one the input sine wave power and the other the power through the resistor?  What are the faint spikes and why are they there?   Are you sure that's just not an aliasing artifact?  Can you also show plots where we can see the 4 KHz switching waveform?  Except for the analog switch, are you using ideal components?  If yes, then you should do a second circuit where you simulate real-world components and show those waveforms.

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #291 on: June 30, 2012, 03:27:47 AM »
Hey M
Im not claiming anything yet. ;]  Actually, I was just messing with it and removed the LC and the powers were not much different. Im a bit confused.  I gota eat something and get back to it.

That is just aliasing. When the waveforms are expanded, the input are sharp tipped ramps.
The output, right shot, is nearly straight spikes, but are ramp down once expanded some..   Also expanded, the power seen being sent back to the source is near 250 w but like a square wave, not a perfect top. But it can easily cancel out some of the area seen in the sharp ramp coming from the source.

Yes, I can expand the waveform to show the 4khz riding the 40hz. I have 6 circuits that I have to go through again to check for consistency. Removing the LC and seeing the results is not what I remember from earlier, err, last night.  Im going to do some comparisons in sim at lighting a sim light bulb via direct AC and then the circuit. At a slow rate in sim, you get to see the time period that it takes for the filament to heat up, and visually as the bulb gets brighter. It can run both circuits simultaneously. It can give us an idea if the wattage shown is really doing the amount of work it might look like its doing.

This is my friday night.  ;D   Gota eat.  Then I gota see what is going on with the LC added and not.


Mags

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #291 on: June 30, 2012, 03:27:47 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #292 on: June 30, 2012, 04:50:17 AM »
By the way, I am pretty sure that a typical MOSFET has about a 2-ohm D-S resistance.  I think I read that several times on the other thread.  I suggest that you guys check your spec sheets.

Offline Qwert

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #293 on: June 30, 2012, 05:11:28 AM »
Hi guys.
Is this discussion about a well known principle used in the auto ignition system? Here is a picture from well known book which describes many such aspects; what about a term "inrush current"? It's "Practical Transformer Handbook". See attachment.

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #293 on: June 30, 2012, 05:11:28 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #294 on: June 30, 2012, 05:42:04 AM »
By the way, I am pretty sure that a typical MOSFET has about a 2-ohm D-S resistance.  I think I read that several times on the other thread.  I suggest that you guys check your spec sheets.

An IRFZ44 D to S is .028 ohms on resistance.  A very common mosfet

 ;D

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #295 on: June 30, 2012, 05:54:35 AM »
Hi guys.
Is this discussion about a well known principle used in the auto ignition system? Here is a picture from well known book which describes many such aspects; what about a term "inrush current"? It's "Practical Transformer Handbook". See attachment.

If you read the description in the pic you posted, it says the capacitor is to protect the switch contacts. But it doesnt just do that. If you try this setup on the bench, you will quickly find out that the capacitor helps to give a much better spark. When that switch is released( without the cap in place) you will see a spark across the gap of the switch.

But when you have the cap across the switch, that voltage has a path into the cap instead of the open contacts of the switch.  So now what happens? Oscillation!  ;] And a nice fat spark. Not just 1 puny static cling looking and sounding spark as with no condenser(cap) across the switch.

But most books on this will only say it is to protect the switch. ;] 

Mags

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #295 on: June 30, 2012, 05:54:35 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #296 on: June 30, 2012, 05:58:30 AM »
An IRFZ44 D to S is .028 ohms on resistance.  A very common mosfet

 ;D

Mags

I would need 5 or 6 of them in parallel to come close to my theoretical switch in my circuit above. I wasnt being unrealistic.  ;]

Mags

Offline Qwert

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #297 on: June 30, 2012, 07:34:01 AM »
 Sorry, Magluvin, I meant something else: "sudden collapsing current". Here is a quote from the mentioned book. The picture in my previous post relates to this quote:
Quote
Stepped-up high voltage from not so high turns ratio.

An experimenter is interested in determining the approximate turns ratio of an automobile ignition coil. He impresses a small audio frequency sinewave on the primary terminals and uses an oscilloscope to measure the induced voltage in the secondary. As a result of this measurement technique, it is found that the voltage step-up is approximately 100. This does not appear reasonable because 100 times the 12 V of the automobile battery falls far short of the 15 000-30 000 V needed for firing spark plugs. What is the nature of the discrepancy? Although not commonly referred to as a 'flyback' transformer, the ignition coil develops its high secondary voltage in a similar manner to the flyback transformer in a television set. In both instances, the primary winding requires a waveform with a very high rate of voltage or current change. Such a waveform induces a high voltage counter EMF in the primary and it is this induced voltage which is stepped-up further in the secondary. Thus in an automobile ignition system, the abrupt cut-off of the applied 12 V induces a counter EMF in the primary with a peak amplitude of about 250-300 V. When this purposely-produced 'transient' is multiplied by a 100 to 1step-up turns ratio, one obtains the 25 kV or so needed for reliable firing ofthe plugs. The basic breaker point ignition system is shown in Fig. 5.2

Offline konehead

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #298 on: June 30, 2012, 07:55:02 AM »
Hi Magluvin
you are "supposed to" not have a resitance like your 99 ohms or 10 ohms in the circuit, UNTIL the caps fill up first - to whatever voltage you desire them to be at (via pulse width of short, frequency of shorts, cap size and all the variables that decide how fast those caps fill up in unloaded-condition)....THEN have a Noff SWon disconnect the coils being shorted from that capacitor being filled up, WHILE at same time, a Noff SWon swtihc connects caps to your load....this way the coils being nver shorted never "see" the load itself - only the resistance of the cap itself is all the coils being shorted have to worry about resistance-wise....can you do this with your simulator program?
when you have a lump resistive load across that cap, you are snubbing away alot of potential power and also will be causing a refleciton back to the primary, so you get extra draw when coils fill up which is no good and is what you want to avoid always....
when yo uget to building the real thing, for sure try 5 mosfets or so in paralell, amd/or very high amp low resistance mosfets that are also HV.....try some IRF P460 NPN types .... remember to put a pull-down 1K resistor across the whole cluster of mosfets if you paralell them - I like to also put a 1K pull-down resistor across EACH mosfet as well as one all the way across the cluster to make sure those mosfets never stick-on...also you should use a driver chip too - I like the 4421 type, and if you pop in a 4422 instead, it inverts the mosfet swithces to become Noff SWon instead of Non SWoff (or vice versa) so this is really easy way to make a "two-stage" output switching circuit...
If you want to have continuous short, then the way to go for that is the Thane method of a certain  high frequency and high ohm coils (IF somethign rotating), to get speed up under load, or the RomeroUK magnets behind cores method to get speed up under load...(again if somethign rotating)..if non-rotating, best to fill up caps unloaded with peak-short, dump caps to load when caps are disconnected from coils...
that "lump" resistive load is how they hide OU !!
 
 

Offline Qwert

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #299 on: June 30, 2012, 01:20:45 PM »
Oops! It looks like you gouys are convinced that the distributors' role is only one in ICE ignition system: to distribute power. My above two posts prove it has also another task: to reinforce the power.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 05:41:42 PM by Qwert »

 

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