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Author Topic: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR  (Read 291418 times)

Offline konehead

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #300 on: June 30, 2012, 07:59:39 PM »
hi Qwert
Ovi Fetche in Romainia has a coil-shorting circuit that he uses in a motorcycle ignition system and it works great he says:
 

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #300 on: June 30, 2012, 07:59:39 PM »

Offline Qwert

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #301 on: June 30, 2012, 10:25:51 PM »
Hi, konehead.
My intention of showing this feature (collapsing current to reinforce power) is to make you aware that it was known and used for long time.

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #302 on: July 01, 2012, 10:41:17 AM »
I finally got my coil shorting going! :D
I had to rebuild my PWM driver as the old one has gone in smoke :)

I've dug up my old setup with a rotor and I am driving it GAP POWER style magnets all same pole out.
Driving coil in attraction polarity magnets behind the coil in repelling mode to the rotor.
I am shorting two gen coils non stop, they're hooked up in parallel.
I'll make a short video soon.


kEhYo
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 06:32:32 PM by kEhYo77 »

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #302 on: July 01, 2012, 10:41:17 AM »
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Offline konehead

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #303 on: July 01, 2012, 07:40:43 PM »
Hi Kehyo
Looks really fun - try pulsing those coils you have, then shorting them right after the motor-pulse has turned off, keeping everything (both motor coisl pulse and motor coil short) "within' the sinewave peak period that the rotormagnets create........or just use them as gernator coils, see if you cna get draw to "prime mover"  be not affected at all...use RPM meter to check draw as you dont want it to slow even 1 RPM to be dead-sure....ammeters can/will show no extra draw, but there may be some rpm drop.....so RPM meters are best to make ssure there is no reflection with the ringing into caps, and also the caps into load - neither should affect rpms or draw at all...if you dont have a two-stage diode-plug type circuit where cap disconnects from coils when they hit load, you will get a reflection in extra draw unless you hit on something really unique...(like Thane or RomeroUK getting speed up under load)
Hi Qwert
yes besides igniton-coil type circuits, Tesla's spark-gap stuff is almost exaclty like a "coil short at peak" since the spark gap jumps only at the high voltage peak (so it happens at peak period) and the spark-jump, when it reaches other side, will SHORT the coil that caused the jump to happen in first place....
also Joe Newman I heard used the coil-shorting to happen right at the time the motor-pulse turns off like just described to kehyo...
but, I have never heard before of people shorting GENERATOR COILS  into caps, and the from caps into load  in two-stage output tyep of thing so gernator doesnt affect draw to motor spinning it...this is sort of new territory and is key to lenz-less generators of any mechanical design..
Ismael has taken the whole coil-shrting thing to high level, with HF resonate pulsing and shorting the "peaks of the rings" is something I dont beleive has been done before excepy maybe by Tesla wiht some variable-capacity caps and crazy spark gap resonance stuff and it probalby was extremely fickle to sustain over a long time.
apparently Edwin Gray used very large capacitors that "imitate" a short-circuit from their resistance and he would hit 5 or so quick pulses into these - not quite same thing as coil short at peak but similar....

Offline Qwert

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #304 on: July 02, 2012, 04:12:48 AM »
...
but, I have never heard before of people shorting GENERATOR COILS  into caps,
...

You are right, konehead. There was however a lot of discussion on this subject several years ago on threads related to TPU (Toroidal Power Unit) at this forum. A treasure of info, only problem to dig it up.

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #304 on: July 02, 2012, 04:12:48 AM »
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Offline kEhYo77

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #305 on: July 09, 2012, 08:01:48 PM »


Hi All


Here is my video of something related to this thread.
Pulse Motor Generator Coil Shorting Test


A Hall sensor triggers a MOSFET transistor to activate the driving coil in attraction mode to the rotor. The stack of magnets behind the driving coil is in opposition to the rotor.
When the driving transistor shuts off, the magnetic field from this stack pushes the rotor away from the TDC. When there is no power applied the rotor is affected by cogging only a little as the stack of magnets is pushing away while the iron/magnetite cores of the generator coils pull to the TDC. The rotor consists of 6 neodymium permanent magnets (N50), of which all the poles are oriented with their NNNNNN outwards.
Two generator coils that are connected in parallel are being shorted constantly many times per cycle using two MOSFET transistors connected source to source with bypassing diodes. This pair is being driven from a small variable frequency/pulse width square wave signal generator/MOSFET driver.
Two neon bulbs are connected across the generator coil pair being shorted.
There are moments when they put out quite a light show of purple flashes there.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #306 on: July 10, 2012, 01:18:27 AM »
Kehyo77:

Quote
Two neon bulbs are connected across the generator coil pair being shorted.
There are moments when they put out quite a light show of purple flashes there.

Let's assume some current was induced into the generator coils while the MOSFET switches were closed.  Then when the MOSFET switch pair goes open-circuit there are no loads across the generator coil pair.  With no loads the generator coils produce high voltage and that fires the neons.

If you put small current-sensing resistors in series with your generator coils you should see a small induced current waveform when the MOSFET switches close.

You could do a spin-down test where you time the spin-down with the generator coils without MOSFET shorting and compare that with a spin-down test with the MOSFET shorting.  We can assume ahead of time that the spin-down test will be shorter with the MOSFET shorting.  This would prove that the MOSFET shorting causes Lenz drag on the rotor.

MileHigh

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #306 on: July 10, 2012, 01:18:27 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #307 on: July 10, 2012, 04:35:39 AM »
Nice setup Kehyo.  What are all those knobs on that controller? ;]

Well that is at high voltages. Have you tried some various wattage 12v light bulbs? Even some low wattage 120v, 220v depending where you are  ;] 

Mags

Offline konehead

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #308 on: July 10, 2012, 08:02:39 AM »
hi Kehyo
from the sound of it, it seems your coil shorting lugs the rotor down in lower rpms, and more draw too...especially at the slower speeds you can tell by the sound of motor in the video.
you need to short coils for purpose of filling the biggest caps you can, as fast as possible, and as high in voltage as possible - all the while not affectin rpms or amp draw to motor spinning the rotor....you really should not put a load on it all at once like you have done with those small lights...
peak coil shorting is meant to go into caps first - and these are unloaded caps...

its nice you have the pulser-circuit so that you can do mulitple shorts, BUT it needs to be very precise timing to it and of course very short pulse widths too -  as the reason for any multiple shorts as opposed to just one very quick one, is to first cause the ringing, via the first short, then after that, the additional shorts must align themselves in timing with only the peaks of the rings created....
when the caps hit your load,  at this same time the caps should be disconnected from the coils that were shorted...so you need an additonal "two stage" output circuit...
very nice setup regardless of all this critic!
 
here is a simple drawing I did of something I am working on with a two-stage output circuit (diode plug in this case with single diodes instead of FWBR, and  filling up two alternating-dishcharge caps and note the "shorting switch")
 

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #308 on: July 10, 2012, 08:02:39 AM »
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Offline kEhYo77

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #309 on: July 10, 2012, 09:19:25 AM »
Hi Konehead, thanks for the heads up.
I know where to go with this with load separation timing etc.
I am getting there I just do things one by one.
Now its finally time for my Arduino to do some shorting and load switching :D
I was thinking of using another hall sensor with tiny magnets at TDCs of N and
'silent' S poles to trigger the shorting sequence only at TDCs.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #310 on: July 10, 2012, 10:57:25 AM »
Kehyo77:

Quoting Konehead:

Quote
as the reason for any multiple shorts as opposed to just one very quick one, is to first cause the ringing, via the first short, then after that, the additional shorts must align themselves in timing with only the peaks of the rings created....

Look at Konehead's circuit.  After the short is removed the coil will discharge into one of the capacitors through a diode.  By definition there will be no ringing.  The coil will discharge all of it's stored energy into the cap via the diode and then everything stops dead.  There is no LC component to make any oscillation.  The coil will not self-oscillate with it's own internal vestigal capacitance because there will be no energy available for the oscillation - all of the energy will have been transferred into the capacitor.  This will be very easy to verify on the bench.

I know that you are deferring to Konehead but I can tell you from reading him that he is no electronics expert by any means.  The real challenge for a circuit like this is to make a timing diagram like I already explained.  If you don't make a timing diagram then it's almost like you are operating blind.  You end up just having fun but not really being serious, your choice.  I also am aware that almost nobody makes serious timing diagrams, and they are all making a mistake if they truly want to understand their pulse motor circuits.

MileHigh

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #310 on: July 10, 2012, 10:57:25 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #311 on: July 10, 2012, 05:29:57 PM »
Kehyo77:

Just a comment for you if you are going to try to build Konehead's circuit.  All that it does is temporarily store energy in the capacitors before the energy in the capacitors gets discharged into some sort of a load.  You don't gain anything by doing this and you increase the complexity of the output section quite a bit.  I know that Konehead believes that somehow short pulses will fill up the capacitors without putting any Lenz drag on the rotor but that is simply not true, it's a fantasy.

It still might be a fun exercise to build it anyways because of the challenge of synchronizing the Arduino timing signals with the spinning rotor magnets.

MileHigh

Offline konehead

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #312 on: July 10, 2012, 09:40:45 PM »
Hi Kehyo
I make rotor-discs with really small neo magnets in them (1/16" wide X 1/4" long so about 1.5mm wide and 6mm long approx) they are really cheap to get on magnets4less site.you can cluster the magnets to make pulse widht longer too...
BUT I found that just one of these very-small magnets triggering a halleffect, still does not make for small-enough pulse width to the coil short, to make sure the rotor does not slow at all when the caps fill.
So, I used two hall effects, and two mosfets (bidirectional they happen to be) and then hooked up these IN SERIES....a 4422 driver runs one mosfet, a 4421 driver the other, so this makes it easy way to make a mosfet either Non-SWoff, or Noff-SWon....
then by adjsuting the distance between the two halleffects, (both triggered by same small trigger-magnet, or two magnets in trigger-rotor both exactly in phase) now you can adjust pulse width down to being very very narrow...and now there will be absoutley no extra draw as the caps fill up.
mabye you can do it with your arduino somehow -  have a small magne be the "trigger" for a very small pulse width via two mosfets in series, one Non-SWoff and other Noff-SWon....anyway this worked great for me and I came up with fact that at 60hz, (as example)  a single peak coil-short event needs to be less than 1/2ms ....
 
anyways here is the circuit - note that the mosfets are bidirectional in this case, and also I have caps filling up from the backemf/recoil too (other subject), but note how the mosfets connect in series and the two halleffects, and the 4421 and 4422 drivers, to adjsut pulsewidth:
 

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #313 on: July 10, 2012, 10:26:35 PM »
Hi Konehead
Quote
4422 driver runs one mosfet, a 4421 driver the other, so this makes it easy way to make a mosfet either Non-SWoff, or Noff-SWon....
What a brilliant idea! :)

Yes, I prefer to do it with Arduino, where the hall sensor will just trigger with a rising edge for example a routine by hardware interrupt.
Then the timing can be adjusted from this point and gives me even more freedom to easily change it with a potentiometer for instance or to
make it self regulate automatically depending on the speed of the rotor.


Thanks!


kEhYo

Offline konehead

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Re: FUELLESS CAR PROTOTYPE by ISMAEL MOTOR
« Reply #314 on: July 11, 2012, 06:48:58 AM »
hi Kehyo
that 4421 or 4422 driver chip for Non-SWoff or Noff-SWon mosfets works really good other ways to do it too, like changing the hall effect to one flipped over but easier to jsut pop out the driver chip and put another in....anyways mabye you can program the arduino to trip a 4421 or 4422 driver for a diode-plug like output circuit (two stage) or whatever you want to do...
also a guy named "RS" drew up this schematic on using a hall-effect to send the inital signal to 556 timer, and then you can set the capture-period, and then the frequency of chopping - this is meant for miltiple peak coil shorting, but whatever you want to do with it - I havent tried it or built it, but here it is.... maybe this can give you some ideas that will match up with arduino program from this I dont know...

 

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