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Author Topic: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison  (Read 524079 times)

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #525 on: October 09, 2008, 01:19:36 PM »
Yeah, that sounds about right for the voltage of a simple
crystal radio... What diode are you using? A germanium one,
most likely, but there's different types still...
You might try adding a "Joule Thief" style enhancement to the
crystal radio circuit, see if you can increase effective output a little...
Or at least get more effective LED light out of the same output...
But that's just an idea. ;)


As for my experiments, I have put my Hutchison Cells based on
Rochelle Salt etc on hold indefinately for lack of encouraging output
measurements. John H also refuses to reply to my emails, as
usual, so there's no advice from his side. I've had enough of that now;
JH says "I can make fire, and here's how you do it", so we study his
videos and texts, and we follow his instructions to the letter... and we
don't get fire. Then we contact him and ask for his advice, and radio
silence occurs.

So I'm back to my own research and that related to mr Reid's experiments.
Have been looking at powder mixes for baking at high temperatures,
specifically in the Cuprates- corner of the field (fyi, this is a more common name
for the new "room temperature" superconductors).
Interestingly, this borders the 'conductive ceramics' corner of the field, which
partially borders the field concerning material composition of certain pyroelectric
minerals, and at one corner even touches the field of vitreous materials (glass-
like "solid liquid" crystal matrices).
Just as the superconductivity effect appears to be the result of peculiar phonon
overlap and exchange due to the specific internal layer structure of the Cuprates,
where the placement and pattern of the atoms results in this remarkable "high
temperature" superconductivity effect, I strongly suspect it is possible to produce
a material where the specific placement, pattern, and types of atoms result in
one-directional room temperature conductivity, combined with thermal noise
rectification.
But I'm still working on it. ;)

 

sutra

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #526 on: October 09, 2008, 02:26:47 PM »
HI guys,
I'm also still on the issue but before building another cell, I'm trying to produce 20 KV DC at about 20KHz signal to "pole" the cell material.

I've found in internet that in the pizoelectric devices production, to "align" the piezoelctric crystal they submit the materials at such voltages for few hours during hardening.
My latest cell included also some graphite in the mix with a total components weight of 10Gr, it outputs a mere 30-150 mV (depending very much on the temperature thanks to the tourmaline) since a month even if kept shorted or connected to a resistor.

I'll keep you updated for future "discoveries", keep up the good job.

Cheers,

Sutra

Pirate88179

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #527 on: October 09, 2008, 05:14:54 PM »
@ Koen1:

Here is a thought.  Why not create an e-mail account in the name of Paris Hilton..(like on hotmail, yahoo, etc.)..e-mail Hutch.....and after a little small talk, ask detailed info about his cell?  You never know, he might respond to that.... ha ha.

Sorry, could not help myself from suggesting this.

Bill

ian middleton

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #528 on: October 09, 2008, 07:13:39 PM »
G'day all,

@Bill,   On yer mate  ;D    might just work. ;)

@Koen,  I tend to agree, unless there is a specific ratio we are missing, the rochelle salt cells are disapointing. I've been tweaking the formulas of my more successful cells and I think I've come to a dead end. Still getting good voltages though.
At the end of the day it will most likely be a ceramic material that give the best results so start warming up that oven.  ;D

@sutra, What advantage do see using a 20kHz high voltage pulse as opposed to DC voltage. It would be interesting to see the results of 2 identical cells, one polarized with DC and the other with 20kHz. Also is there a reason for choosing 20kHz.

I've managed to upgrade my polarizing voltage from 2.5kV to 6.9kV. I'll have some test results next week.

Keep up the good work guys

catch you later

Ian


jeanna

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #529 on: October 09, 2008, 10:39:05 PM »
Nice avatar, Ian

jeanna

sutra

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #530 on: October 12, 2008, 10:50:08 PM »
Hi there,
there is a study on the poling characteristics of the rochelle salt that suggest a better polarisation between 2 KHz to 20KHz. Hutchinson himself to polarizing his cells mentioned high voltage and a "very clean signal". I'm building something to drive a car ignition coil to push voltage to a 20 KVDC continuous at 20KHz frequency.
I really think that more than the components ratios that can be figured out with different trials, I think that to make the cells give off some usable output, we have to work on serious polarization.

Some websites about piezoelectric materials production talk about the application of up to 50 KVDC per square centimeter to pole properly their piezo actuators.

If you want, I can give you the website address of the friend from which I get electronic developing plans that really work and a very good assistance.


Cheers to all

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #531 on: October 13, 2008, 02:29:33 PM »
Yeah, well... Hutchison has said several different things...
In most of his text references he simply says to use high voltage DC during
the solidification phase. In his "Invent this!" tv footage he said high voltage DC
again. In the radio interview in which Feynman managed to ask a few questions,
he was even asked if it needed to be pulsed or continuous, and then he
first seemed to indicate he used high volage pulses, but then a couple
of minutes later he was adamant that it needs to be clean DC again.

In general he has talked about using hV DC quite often and only now and then
said something different...
But I don't recall him giving any info about frequencies used... So I never thought
and still don't think he's using any frequencies, I think he's using simple
hV DC, straight.

Another thing... You're talking about using a spark plug to generate 20 KV DC,
continuous, yet not continuous at the same time, since you're using 20 KHz...
How do you have a continuous direct current if you're pulsing it? Then it's not
continuous anymore, is it?
Seems to me there's a very clear difference between continuous current,
and pulses of direct current.

Aside from that, do you have, or perhaps you have a link or something, an explanation
as to why pulsed DC would have a better effect on the polarisation?
I've tried to come up with a good theoretical explanation as to why this would be,
and although I have a few ideas that might explain it to a degree, it still seems
much more sensible that polarisation would work better using a continuous DC
and not using pulses...
Is the pulsing not simply used to limit the total energy use for polarisation?
(As in pulsing hV DC every x milliseconds costs less energy than actually running
the same hV DC continually.) I'm just wondering...
After all, it seems a little bit like saying that pushing the gas pedal every second
will make the car speed up more than just keeping it floored... ;) See what I'm
saying?


ian middleton

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #532 on: October 14, 2008, 02:38:50 AM »
G'day all,

As far as the polarization issue goes I'm of the opinion that we need in the range of 20kV to 50kV DC before we start seeing a true crystal battery effect. Preferably 100kV DC. T T Brown used such high voltages as did JH. There is a case however ,I think, for pulsed HVDC. When curing a cell it may be advantagous to start off with pulsed HVDC then to finish it off with straight DC. I am of course talking about Electrostactic Polarization, that is a high tension electric field across the cell and not a current.

Since I've been using ES polarization none of my cell have gone the a reversal stage and each have shown slightly higher current output.

At the moment I'm designing a thinner cell to take advantage of the voltage gradient that I have available, which is 6-7kV. I'll be rolling that one out shortly.

@sutra: If you feel that pulsed polarization may work the please go ahead and try it. Every experiment in this field is valuable. The results you get may be very valuable to us all.  :)

@Koen1: I take it theres still no news from you know who?  ;)

Ok you mottley crew, back to work. Theres 50 million toys that need batteries for Christmas. Now get to it.  ;D ;D ;D

Ian

AbbaRue

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #533 on: October 14, 2008, 08:51:27 AM »
I can see a great difference between using a HVDC current and a HV static field.
The HVDC will do a lot of arcing inside the cell causing heating and possible separation of elements.
Eg. Salt will separate into sodium and chlorine.  I don't think this is what we want.
Whereas a good HV static charge could cause as electret to form on cooling.
I think the electret concept is what we are looking for here.

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #534 on: October 14, 2008, 04:25:48 PM »
G'day all,

As far as the polarization issue goes I'm of the opinion that we need in the range of 20kV to 50kV DC before we start seeing a true crystal battery effect. Preferably 100kV DC. T T Brown used such high voltages as did JH. There is a case however ,I think, for pulsed HVDC. When curing a cell it may be advantagous to start off with pulsed HVDC then to finish it off with straight DC. I am of course talking about Electrostactic Polarization, that is a high tension electric field across the cell and not a current.
Yes, we theorised that that would probably be the case, and clearly it is. Seems it was a good idea to try electrostatic instead of direct polarisation eh? :)

(@AbbaRue: indeed, the difference between electrostatic - and direct current polarisation is obvious, you are entirely correct about that. Direct application of
DC will cause elecrons to be injected into the Cell material, flow through it, and then exit it, causing not just seperation of different valence atoms, but also
ion migration and electron exchange by ionic "shuttling" of charge. This can cause constant movement of the charge carriers which can and very often does
disrupt the formation of desired internal structures. Electrostatic polarisation will not do this, no additional electrons are injected nor pass through the material,
it is the atoms of which the material is composed that act as the charged particles and they seperate according to the electrostatic field, and should mostly
stay "locked" in that position as the static charge is maintained and the material solidifies. And that results in ordered, polarised dielectric material, a.k.a.
Electrets. Damn am I happy to have people like you in our group here, who understand what's going on. :) )

I can imagine how pulsed hV might be advantageous in generating a nice even "spread" of the dopant atoms in just about any material we want to polarise,
but I still have some trouble getting a clear picture of how it would have advantages when used with Rochelle Salt for example...
If you or anyone else could clear this up I would be grateful. :)

Quote
Since I've been using ES polarization none of my cell have gone the a reversal stage and each have shown slightly higher current output.

Well in my experiments the output is not really terribly much higher, that increase seems marginal at best, but indeed the reversal effect seems to
disappear. It should, and it does. Nice. :) And also cool that we figured this out while JH apparently still has the reversal effect... hehe ;D

Quote
At the moment I'm designing a thinner cell to take advantage of the voltage gradient that I have available, which is 6-7kV. I'll be rolling that one out shortly.
Great stuff. In relation to a totally different experiment I've been planning I was considering to buy a small plasma generator which should also be able to produce
into the several kilovolts DC, and I am increasingly tempted to go ahead with the purchase... Despite the financial troubles everywhere... ;)

Quote
@sutra: If you feel that pulsed polarization may work the please go ahead and try it. Every experiment in this field is valuable. The results you get may be very valuable to us all.  :)
Oh yes, Sutra, please don't think that I mean to keep you from using pulsed DC eh, I'm just saying that I presently don't have a clear picture of how that
would add anything, but I am only human and like Ian says every experiment in our field here is valuable, so please do try it and please do post your
results! :D

Quote
@Koen1: I take it theres still no news from you know who?  ;)
Nope, as usual you know who is incommunicado. Sure hope he's getting some
good info from Paris eh? ;D

Quote
Ok you mottley crew, back to work. Theres 50 million toys that need batteries for Christmas. Now get to it.  ;D ;D ;D
LOL ;D
Well I'm not sure if we can make all of those 50 million toys batteryless, but we can at least try :D
Just to cut some corners I'm now working on several formulas for artificial tourmaline, and should be able to start
baking experiments in a month. Aiming for 1mm thick slices, but with baking you're never very sure eh. ;)

sutra

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #535 on: October 14, 2008, 05:19:11 PM »
hi guys,

YES, is a matter of experimenting as soon as I finish with the building of my 20KVDC "pump" I'll try to submit the cell to some electroshock.
I know, probably I'll end up with free chlorine  fuming out the thing but anywhere I checked, the piezoelectric materials are exposed to direct high voltages,

I've seen an article of early age research on Rochelle Salt frequency response but I have to find that out again in the net, meanwhile, here is some good reading about piezoelectiricy and the manufactoring of piezo ceramics and actuators.

http://www.morganelectroceramics.com/pdfs/tp217.pdf
http://www.americanpiezo.com/piezo_theory/index.html
http://www.physikinstrumente.com/en/products/prdetail.php?sortnr=400600.20
http://www.integritytechnology.net/Resonators/Resonator-Technote-1.pdf
http://aml.seas.ucla.edu/research/areas/piezoelectric/marie/Piezoelectric%20overview%20v2005.pdf
http://www.morganelectroceramics.com/pdfs/tp217.pdf
http://books.google.it/books?id=rcrGlrguj1YC&pg=PA2095&lpg=PA2095&dq=poling+treatment+rochelle+salt&source=web&ots=mHPP446b6_&sig=JlkFOYHTXerNhvs7mImVfR_V-hc&hl=it&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA2096,M1
http://www.answers.com/topic/piezoelectricity
http://www.resonancepub.com/piezoele.htm

Pulsed electricity could reduce electro dissociation of the substances involved.


Cheers

Anothertruthfinder

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #536 on: October 14, 2008, 11:07:54 PM »
 Hi all  ;D, bit of a newbie here but ive been following many different fe/ae threads and thought i'd let everyone know of my dabblings in this particular thread, i apologize if this unoriginal or not really any use to anyone but i thought the concept made me prick my ears up a little hehe
i made a series array of 7 little cells - made from - here's the crazy part, 'catsan' cat litter, yes cat litter! a little bicarbonate of soda and tap water mixed into a smooth paste (crushing up the litter in a bag with a hammer beforehand sorry) into some empty small round glass nightlights (just over an inch tall), i put a half inch strip of aluminium running down the side of it leaving a long top taper for contacting and i cut a 3mm thick 'rod' of copper again leaving room to contact at the ends outside the glass. The copper is as you might have guessed + and the alu -.

results
per cell - .56/.65 volts
series array - 4.07 volts (fluctuant .05 -+) open circuit voltage
current - 2-12 ma
its currently lighting an led near full brightness (4hrs) - going to leave it going constantly and let you all know the results
any info i will try and give, i will try and give!



p.s. i'm aka - eel

ian middleton

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #537 on: October 15, 2008, 12:23:11 AM »
G'day all,

@Anothertruthfinder:  Excellent work there dude, I mean, having a nickname of eel with sure save us some typing.  ;D

Welcome aboard and thanks for your post. You will find in earlier posts in this thread that kitty litter was also trialled and then refined to bentonite clay. My results using the clay were pretty dismal but then again I did not use bicarb in the mix.
Of interest would be the voltage and current of your cells when they are totally dry. You might find the current drops faster than the stockmarket. ;D

Also, why did you decide to use kitty litter?

Anyway as I said, welcome and any input will be greatly recieved.

regards  Ian

jeanna

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #538 on: October 15, 2008, 02:27:26 AM »
Hi all  ;D, bit of a newbie here but ive been following many different fe/ae threads and thought i'd let everyone know of my dabblings in this particular thread,

p.s. i'm aka - eel
Welcome and
Thanks ATF eel,

I was thinking of retrying this only to put a load onto it to see if that helps. I didn't realize the importance of putting the load to it until recently.

I also used kaolin clay once from the health food store and then I bought the kitty litter. I also had to hammer it to powder it.  ;D lotsa fun  ;D

I used it exactly as you did with the pure stuff. (I used sodium carbonate not bicarbonate on all of them also.)

It turned into a very fine powder. In fact they all did.

Later with the kitty litter, I added sand then sand and cement (clinker)

It is such an interesting thing to do, but, mine all ate the alu terminals before they were dry.

My first suggestion therefore is to choose a different metal for your alu terminal.
(I am not suggesting that you take this apart. )

I am very curious. As I said, I never put a load on any of mine. I just recently learned that this is likely to enhance the result.

thank you,

jeanna

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #539 on: October 15, 2008, 10:23:38 AM »
Yes, welcome ATF / Eel :D

It's always nice to have more people in our select club of
experimenters! ;D

As Ian already mentioned, your success with kitty litter is not all that
surprising.
But it is great to see that you managed to make a working array
of bentonite-family Cells! :D
Ok, output is still very low hey, but that's a thing we're all still working on,
so you're right up there with the rest of us! ;D