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Author Topic: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison  (Read 524017 times)

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2008, 11:52:57 AM »
Feynman, thanks for that!

Remarkable that Hutchison does want to talk on his show but does not reply to
emails with similar questions...

Although I find your action commendable, I have some questionmarks on Hutchisons answers...

First of all, he says we shouldn't focus on the quartz. Later on he says one of the ingredients needs to be sand.
Now I don't know what type of sand he is talking about, but to my knowledge sand is mostly quartz...

Second, Hutchison gave me a similar "recipe" some time back, but it was slighlty different.
He did not talk about using Galena back then.

Third, if you mix Rochelle salts, Iron pyrite, and Galena with water and heat it,
you should get a sulphuric acid solution with lead and iron ions in it, and the rochelle salts
merely add electrolyte...
sounds like a mix that is VERY galvanically active, which should mean galvanic reactions,
which smells of a normal chemical battery reaction to me...
And I thought we wanted to avoid that.

Fourth, even if we were certain these are the exact ingredients used, the ratios of the
materials used in the mix are crucial. You can't just toss any amount together and hope
it will work.
Take "normal" germanium diodes for example, the p- and n- dopants used in those
are generally something like 1% dopant in the germanium, and a few % more has
a huge effect on its function as a diode... So how much of which you mix together
can have enormous effects.

So the questions that remain, in my mind, are:
- what are the ratios of the ingredients used
- is Hutchison being completely truthful about the ingredient list, as info received
from him in the not too distant past was clearly significantly different on the exact same subject

That said, thanks Feynman for the call-in action there, and for posting the info here! :D
I salute you. ;)

You wouldn't happen to have a URL with the radio show, would you?

kind regards,
Koen

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2008, 12:01:10 PM »
I am sure you just saved a bunch of people a lot of time with experiments here.

Heh... Not really.
I knew this story.
Problem is there are different versions that Hutchison has brought forward.
This one has Galena as crucial ingredient, another story did not.
Another one included barium titanate, and another version included
silver coated metal electrodes...
It seems Johns story tends to change slightly over time...

Another problem is that Germanium is freaking expensive: over 600 euros for 200 grams!
Nothing cheap about it at all.

And we still need to experiment to get the ratios right,
that is assuming that Hutchison gave a truthful and exact ingredient list this time.
Which I doubt.
And experimenting with such expensive material is not for everyone...

Still, Feynman did a great job contacting JH, that's true :)

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2008, 01:44:12 PM »
Okay, since we've now got a few people here who seem to actually
want to try some experiments, besides Ian and Jeanna and me who
have already done quite a few between the three of us,
I will give a short breakdown of the approach I have been using.

Originally I had some ideas about incorporating quartz into semiconductor
diodes, thinking the naturally oscillating quartz might be used to excite
electrons (and holes) at the p-n junction much in the same way an
incoming photon excites them in a solar cell p-n junction. This idea
I had dubbed the "Quartz Diode" and my first concept drawings of that
stem from 2000/2001.
Fairly quickly I had determined that it was near impossible for me to
produce p- and n-doped semiconductor material of the purity needed
to produce an actual functional semiconductor diode comparable to
those produced industrially and commercially available, for several
reasons but mostly because I do not have a "clean room" with a
1500+ degree kiln for melting the materials.
So I decided I was going to look into other possible compositions
and types of materials I could make with them. This path turned
out to be very similar to that followed by both Hutchison and Reid,
as I later found out.

My approach is still very similar to my "quartz diode" concept:
basically we just want naturally oscillating material such as quartz
to stimulate electron flow, and we want to use diode-like rectification
to "lead" this flow in one direction only.
That means making a material with quartz in it for excitation, and
with p-n semiconductor properties.
So we want to use semiconductive materials in the mix.
Common semiconductive compounds are:
Galena (PbS), Titanium oxide, Iron oxide, Copper oxide,
silicium, germanium, etc etc.
So it seems we may want to use these materials in the mix.

I have made various cells, and one of my most recent paths of
examination was a line of cells made with a mix of several of
those "common" semiconductor materials.
Attached you will find a pic of two of my large cells;
the left is a "Reid"-style based cell with a material that is
based on the material Reid uses/used in his cells, and
the right is a cell from that semiconductor compound mix
line. That particular cell has a mix that I have described before:
titanium oxide, iron oxide, cobalt oxide, aluminium oxide,
fine quartz sand, several common silicates, little bit of additives
like kaolin, borax, mica. The one on the pic does not contain
pyrite or tourmaline, but I have made some that do.
Oh, by the way, both of these cells give around 1V output
at a low milliamperage, nothing structural above 10mA.

As for the Germanium, I have been trying to purchase Germanium
powder for use in my experiments for quite some time now,
and so far the closest I have gotten is a rough price indication.
A company in the UK claims to be able to supply it at
prices of about 200 pounds per 100 grams, and one here in NL
offers it for 300 euros per 100 grams... But both companies act
like its a big deal and seem a bit reluctant...
It seems a bit strange to me that Hutchison refers to this material
as "cheap"... titanium oxide, that's cheap. Germanium is flippin expensive!
Perhaps H uses only a very small quantity in his cells?
Then it would be relatively cheap...
But since we don't know the ratios of his ingredients at all, that's
all idle speculation I guess...
;)

In any case, if anyone wants to try some mixes of common
semiconductors, then please keep us posted? :)

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2008, 02:37:11 PM »
1) I think he meant that quartz (as in ground up quartz rocks) was not crucial.  He DID mention finely ground sand, which would also be silicon dioxide (SiO2). 

2)  Yes, I know the ratios are important, but I felt that would be pushing the request. Especially on radio.   I figure we can at least try experimenting now that we've narrowed things down a bit.  Plus it gives us the added knowledge of trying things.  What fun would it be if there was no mystery?  ;)

3) As for that Barium compound, he did mention it as a possible ingredient, but it seemed it was not an ingredient in the 'classic' vintage Hutchinson cells (my own speculation).  It seemed that the barium addition a new area of experimentation.   As a side note, barium is a group 2 element, so it's closest to Magnesium and Calcium in its electron configuration.

4) Regarding the electrodes, I didn't ask about these.  Silver seems to me to be a good material for this since it resists corrosion and is the best conductor.   

5) If Germanium is really that expensive, the amounts necessary must be very small.  I say this because John listed the materials cost per cell as $0.50 to $1.00.  There is no way these cells are 50% germanium.  It is probably added as a doping agent like in a transistor, in more reasonable percentages.  Also, AbbaRue mentioned it was powdered germanium, not one of the salts.  I think that is right, considering many of the germanium salts do not play nice in air at room temp. 

6) So yes, we need to experiment to learn the ratios, etc.  I figured this was a small price to pay for guidance on the materials and high voltage activation, since materials concerns seemed to be the biggest question.


« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 03:59:12 PM by Feynman »

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #169 on: March 27, 2008, 03:23:56 PM »
I agree with your assesment, except for the barium titanate remark,
as H clearly was already working on BaTi variants back in Hiroshima...
But in general you seem to be right.

Thanks again for your effort, it is greatly appreciated! :)

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #170 on: March 27, 2008, 04:08:39 PM »
@Ian, all

The audio from the radio show is not online yet, but I suspect it will be soon.  The program is called "Paranormal Radio" and the host was "Captain Jack", who was actually a really good host.  It was recorded Wed. March 26th 2008.

http://www.contacttalkradio.com/hosts/archives/captainjack.htm


Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #171 on: March 27, 2008, 05:17:55 PM »
I would like to post the ingredients as Hutchison mentioned them
in his private newsletter, but one can only get to his newsletter
by registering as a member on the website www.hutchisoneffect.ca
and donating some $$ to his cause. Which I did, but clearly that
"members only" info was not intended for the general public, and
I think Hutchison would not appreciate my "pirating" of his newsletter.

It seems that website is now offline. It was still online two weeks ago.
Don't know what's going on...

In any case, the info in the newsletter was similar to the info Feynman
got from the radio show, yet slightly different.
He names the ingredients he told Feynman about, but he also mentions
others. In the newsletter he does not state Galena as ingredient, he
describes it as a material with similar desirable characteristics.
To me that meant "semiconductor used for making rectifying diodes",
which explains the Germanium as anyone schooled in the history of the
diode and the transistor should know that before transistors existed,
people used vacuum tube amplifiers and/or "crystal detectors" in radios.
For clarification: "crystal detectors" were originally semiconductive crystals
like Galena, and they were ancestors and rough versions of a diode.
During WW2 radar research they researched better "radio detectors",
and came up with Germanium as a better crystal detector.
So basically Galena is the older and less sensitive "cousin" of Germanium.
(well not really as it is a compound and only semconductive as compound
crystal, while Germanium is a semiconductive element in itself. But you get the idea.)
It is, in my opinion and according to my own theoretical interpretation,
not at all coincidental that fine quartz sand is used, as that obviously is a silicium
compound, and silicium is the lighter "brother" of germanium, it is also a semi-
conductive element, and much more abundant than germanium.

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #172 on: March 27, 2008, 05:35:17 PM »
@Koen
So do you think that we want both germanium powder and galena, or one or the other?  Or perhaps we should try both?

@all
By the way, germanium powder should be easy to obtain at high mesh sizes, since it is a non-toxic semiconductor.   The problem will obtaining be the galena (lead sulfide) and perhaps the barium titanate, since these are toxic. This of course will vary depending on your country.

The rochelle salt is very easy to make, and requires only readily available reagents.  I posted a simple reaction to precipitate rochelle salt, and you can probably just dessicate it and then grind very finely using a morter and pestle.

PS
@Koen, ian
Are you sure that you need to mix this stuff in water? I'm afraid that might destroy the crystalline structure of these beautiful reagents.  Because many are ionic salts, by wet mixing, those ions are just going to go into solution, and you'll be real lucky if you get nice crystals back out.

 If this were my crystal cell, I'd just dry mix nanoparticle powders of the components and run 20 kiloVolts through it.  Perhaps this is not correct.




« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 05:57:42 PM by Feynman »

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #173 on: March 27, 2008, 06:18:04 PM »
So do you think that we want both germanium powder and galena, or one or the other?  Or perhaps we should try both?
Well that's a good question. I am inclined to experiment, so I would say try all of the above. ;)
I have an educated hunch ;) that some combination of the two might have more of the desired effect than one of the two.
But I also have some mixed feelings bout the galena, and think perhaps other semiconductor compounds could be
equally or even more usefull.

Quote
By the way, germanium powder should be easy to obtain at high mesh sizes, since it is a non-toxic semiconductor.   The problem will obtaining be the galena (lead sulfide) and perhaps the barium compounds, since these are toxic. This of course will vary depending on your country.

Yes well, toxicity is not the only thing that limits availability. Abundance is also an important factor. Germanium is a relatively rare element, while lead and sulphur
are quite abundant, which makes Ge very expensive and PbS cheap. Could be that PbS is not easily found, but should not be more difficult than Ge,
and it can be made quite easily by reacting lead and sulphur. And anyone with an old car battery has the two... Besides, Galena is a naturally occuring
mineral, so you should be able to order it from mineral and gem shops.

Quote
The rochelle salt is very easy to make, and requires only readily available reagents.  I posted a simple reaction to precipitate rochelle salt, and you can probably just grind it very finely using a morter and pestle.
Yes, I know the basic preparation formula you posted. It's from Wiki, isn't it? ;)
The problem I have with that is that although sodium carbonate is readily available, I cannot find an easy source of potassium bitatrate.
Maybe some antique chemist across the border can make me some rochelle salt...

Quote
PS
Are you sure that you need to mix this stuff in water? I'm afraid that might destroy the crystalline structure of these beautiful reagents.  Because many are ionic salts, by wet mixing, those ions are just going to go into solution, and you'll be real lucky if you get nice crystals back out.
Well, I have several reasons for the tenacious idea that we need to add water. One is the simple fact that Hutchison said so (in his newsletter).
Another is that the end product is a silicate compound with metal/mineral dopant, and in general any such solid is called a "ceramic", which
in general is prepared by mixing the ingredients in a moist state, and then baking them into a solid.
And another is the fact that any dry form of melding/fusing/baking the mix into a solid requires extremely high temperatures because you're
talking about melting the solid materials and allowing the molten materials to fuse and form one material matrix. This needs extreme
temperatures and a kiln that can reach the melting temperatures of all materials needed. Silicium for example metls at 1420 degrees C,
SiO2 at 1650 degrees... Now that's really hot, not just something you do in your kitchen. ;) And as you may recall from Hutchisons demo
video in the "invent this!" TechTV show, in the demo he uses a simple electrical cooker/heater to make the cell... If it did not contain
any water, then that would serve no purpose other than warming the powders up nice and cozy... And I don't think that's what H is doing.

Perhaps you are slighlty lead astray by the term "crystal cell"? What is meant is not "a cell full of little crystals", but rather the term
"crystal" as in "crystalline material matrix", you know, the "crystal lettice", the internal structure of a solid material. The cell material
forms 'crystalline' material structure in that the different atoms link together in a suitable manner to produce a specific solid compound,
which like any crystal structure has certain electrical and electrodynamic properties. Ok, it seems to me that all of these cells would
contain a polycrystalline material which one could view as "many little crystals", but I don't think that is what is meant with the term
"crystal cell".

But hey, I could be wrong... ;)

Quote
If this were my crystal cell, I'd just dry mix nanoparticle powders of the components and run 20 kiloVolts through it. Just a thought.
Well I'd like to do that in combination with tossing the entire thing into a kiln at something like 1800 degrees, because it is of very little
to no use if we do that at "kitchen temperatures" of 300 degrees max.
So it seems melting is the way to go for the dry approach. And if we want to quartz/silicium to melt along with the rest,
we'll need at least 1600 degrees...
But what metals remain solid at that temperature? After all, we'd need a container...
And we can't melt it in a kiln, then pull it out in molten state and quickly pour it into a metal container, either...
... for one thing you'd set the building on fire, and still melt the metal container probably.

Well, there's my reasons for adding some water. ;)









[/quote]

sutra

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #174 on: March 27, 2008, 06:20:37 PM »
Hey guys,

Rochelle salts disolve also in alcohool...maybe just enough to adhere to the platlets and bond everything together...


Have you seen these pics? The cell looks so "glassy" inside..almost like a pile of thin glass, quartz or fluorite disks...
but the interesting thing is the drawing he shows: looks like the scheme of a diode...or the blue-print of a system to keep "compressed" the disks pile - I also read somewhere, that he needed the help of someone to find the system to coat quartz with metal....the only simple one I know is the method involving the rochelle salts and silver...
In the other hand, we all saw the videos where he shows a very different cell content...

Moreover I think that  a man who discovers the secret to harvesting free energy, would be VERY VERY much busy in finding the way to merchandise its product (worth an hell of money) or at least sharing it with the rest of the world...(as probably we are pushed in doing, since mother Earth resources are limited and the climate is completely ruined...)...for me. his behaviour is quite strange... 

 ???What do you think?


ciao
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 06:46:50 PM by sutra »

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #175 on: March 27, 2008, 06:32:56 PM »
@sutra
Thank you for the pictures.  No I had not seen these yet...

@Koen
Quote
I know the basic [rochelle salt] preparation formula you posted. It's from Wiki, isn't it?

Indeed it is

Quote
The problem I have with that is that although sodium carbonate is readily available, I cannot find an easy source of potassium bitatrate.
Maybe some antique chemist across the border can make me some rochelle salt...

Perhaps one can make potassium bitartrate from tartaric acid?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3e/Tartaric_acid.png/200px-Tartaric_acid.png)
tartaric acid

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Potassium_bitartrate.png/200px-Potassium_bitartrate.png)
potassium bitartrate


C4H6O6 + KOH  <-->  KC4H5O6 + H2O

tartaric acid + potassium hydroxide <--> potassium bitartrate + water




As for your other comments regarding melting point and use of water as a solvent, thank you very much.  They were enlightening. 

AbbaRue

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #176 on: March 27, 2008, 07:21:35 PM »
If you look at the Hutchison videos you will learn a lot about how to make these cells.
First I don't think water has anything to do with the mixture.
You mix the dry ingredients together and heat the mixture on a hot plate
once it's hot you apply the HV DC keeping it charged while it cools down.
The concept is similar to making on electret.
I believe the Rochelle salt is the main active ingredient because it is a piezoelectric material. 
He says the quartz or sand isn't a main ingredient because it is the insulator,
so any insulator should work even glass. 
I believe he gave us a list of ingredients that work together, any combo of these should give resaults.
It sounds like the pyrite is very important because he put more emphases on it,
stating that Japan had the best source he found. 

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #177 on: March 27, 2008, 08:03:42 PM »
@Sutra: yes, I know those pictures.
That is one of Hutchisons Barium Titanate cells, if I recall correctly.
That one had to be slammed onto the workbench to start working again,
and if I'm not mistaken was made with thin metal plates that were
coated with a thin layer of barium titanate. This is the type of cell
he sold to that Japanese businessman.
It is one of the earlier versions, before H came up with the "dirt cheap"
method. It was a much more complicated and probably also expensive
process to make such a cell.

@Abbarue: :) I've studied all the videos that show H working on or
talking about his cells. I've also briefly been in contact with him,
and got some descriptions from H on paper. He is very secretive
about the entire thing, claims a number of people have tried to
steal the idea to develop and market it themselves, just like
has happened with some of his other inventions. That is why
he refuses to give more detailed information and will not give
any info on the ratios used. Or so he says.
He is not telling the entire story, I think.
He certainly does not show all in his videos.
As for the water thing, like I told Feynman, I don't see how
you can make a solid out of the dry materials at "kitchen
temperatures" without adding water (or some other solvant).
Plus in the text info I have from Hutchison he clearly says he
adds water... but then again that could be just a bit of disinformation
on his part, to keep the secret... ;)

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #178 on: March 27, 2008, 08:44:25 PM »
Glad to hear those pictures were of older cells... I think the most viable path forward will be with both 'wet-mixed' and 'dry-mixed' cells based on the corrected materials list:

fine sand (SiO2)
iron pyrite
germanium powder
rochelle salt
... and possibly lead(II) sulfide (galena) and/or barium titanate


Experiment with both wet and dry, and activate with 12-20kV. 

Personally, I think the finer the powders are ground, the better things will be.  Most ideal would be nanopowders. 


Nihilanth

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #179 on: March 27, 2008, 11:46:40 PM »
Did anyone else notice that all of the materials he mentioned were on the first page of this topic, and is on wikipedia.